Brake Review - 1 Day DE at NHMS - Stock w/Cool carbon Pads

[gsrbri]

I ran my E90 ZCP at NHMS w/the Porsche Northeast Region on Friday. The car is stock w/only a pad updgrade (Cool Carbon pads) and ATE Blue brake fluid. Tires are the Conti SC3.

I am a beginner/novice w/the PCA, just to give an idea on ability, so I'm not too hard on the brakes.

The Cool Carbons were bedded per their recommendations (excellent pad transfer to rotors) and brake fluid was changed two days before the event. The pads have been nice and quiet, although I'm a stickler for good caliper surface lube and they have shims, so they only groan slightly when really hot when coming to a slow stop.

At the track, the pad offered good bite and fade resistance. The hard braking toward turn 3...felt I should get better deceleration, but still not too bad. By the end of the day, the pad material transfer still uniform and not excessive. Factory rotors seemed to manage heat well, w/the aluminum pins and aluminum rotor hats. Wheels barely got hot. Pedal got soft for the last session, which I attribute to my hottest (fastest) session and boiling the fluid. Pedal is still soft, so going to bleed/switch fluid in the next day or two.

Pads held up well, had good track performance, and I think I may look into Castrol SRF fluid, as the porsche guys all have good luck w/this fluid and a higher boiling point than ATE Blue/Gold. It was an ambient cool (temp) day, though, so managing heat w/the brakes seemed easy.

Feedback welcomed. -Brian

[1MOREMOD]

I'm surprised your wheels didn't get hot. It was impossible for me to get a pressure on mine without gloves as the radiant heat off both my wheels and brakes was extremely hot. This was on a mid 60s day and I am pretty new on the track as well.

[BostonRocket]

Thanks for the review. I am scheduled to do the 10/7 SCDA event at NHMS.

-Chris

[montreal red]

no point doing SRF fluid... your pads will probably fade first before the need to go SRF... cool carbons are not track pads, ATE will be sufficient.

[bigjae1976]

My cost/benefit analysis says that Motul RBF600 is cheaper in the long run and just as good.

[gsrbri]

Originally Posted by montreal red

no point doing SRF fluid... your pads will probably fade first before the need to go SRF... cool carbons are not track pads, ATE will be sufficient.

I realize Cool Carbons aren't track pads. They're a dual-use pad, as confirmed last Friday and figured I'd provide feedback. The SRF fluid would be beneficial in that I wouldn't have to flush it as frequently. The ATE Blue boiled and introduced air this time around, so no choice but to flush after every event.

[elh0102]

You might want to try some more aggressive track pads. The additional efficiency when hot may help manage your fluid temperature. The only pad I have ever used that I would consider a marginal dual purpose pad, is the StopTech high performance street pad. I believe they are made in OE M3 caliper sizes. But I should add, my only experience with them has been with the StopTech system. The differences in pad surface area, and rotor design might not allow a valid assumption as to how well they would work with the OE calipers.

[STALKER]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

My cost/benefit analysis says that Motul RBF600 is cheaper in the long run and just as good.

Im gonna disagree with you there. If you track your car say 6-8 times a year, SRF is cheaper in the long run because it will last an entire year easily, so no need to bleed or flush the system for the entire year.

I use to use RBF600, great stuff, but I had to do one or two mid track season bleeds(I did not do the work myself), so with labour and extra fluid, in the long run cost me more.


But this will def depend on how often you hit the track.

[Chrisfast]

I had Ferdo DS2500's put on when my car came in at PDI. Also added Stainless Lines and Motul RBF600. They were very noisy until I got them bedded in. Now they are extremely quiet and have a quite a good cold bite for being a mostly track pad.
Car is almost broken in and my track date is set for next Thursday. I figure if I fry them out there I've done all I can with the stocks and will be forced to go with a big brake kit. Hoping I don't have to do that, but the stock brakes are just not meant for anything other than street duty. What a shame BMW decided to cut cost and use such an inferior brake system and then not give it any ducting to try and cool them down.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by STALKER

Im gonna disagree with you there. If you track your car say 6-8 times a year, SRF is cheaper in the long run because it will last an entire year easily, so no need to bleed or flush the system for the entire year.

I use to use RBF600, great stuff, but I had to do one or two mid track season bleeds(I did not do the work myself), so with labour and extra fluid, in the long run cost me more.


But this will def depend on how often you hit the track.

A year? That was not my experience. I used SRF and I had to bleed it after 4 track days. Motul will last about 2 days. So its $64 for Motul vrs $80 for SRF.

Actually, I've found that Motul will last for 3 days but since I am now doing weekends...paying labor for a mid-weekend bleed does favor SRF.

I guess if you pay someone to bleed the brakes (definitely not a bad idea)...SRF makes a lot more sense.

[1MOREMOD]

why are you needing to bleed the brakes so much more often with the race fluid? sorry for the newb question. was looking at doing stainless lines and better fluid so curiuos what to go with.

[gsrbri]

Originally Posted by Chrisfast

I had Ferdo DS2500's put on when my car came in at PDI. Also added Stainless Lines and Motul RBF600. They were very noisy until I got them bedded in. Now they are extremely quiet and have a quite a good cold bite for being a mostly track pad.
Car is almost broken in and my track date is set for next Thursday. I figure if I fry them out there I've done all I can with the stocks and will be forced to go with a big brake kit. Hoping I don't have to do that, but the stock brakes are just not meant for anything other than street duty. What a shame BMW decided to cut cost and use such an inferior brake system and then not give it any ducting to try and cool them down.

Chrisfast: Let me know how you make out w/the Ferodo DS2500 pads. They are on my "to try" list. Regarding the rest of the braking system...I think w/ducting (depending on the track) the system would do much better. The floating rotors and aluminum hats, and overall mass of the system, is pretty good - from a design perspective. My rotors seemed to cool well w/one cool-down lap at NHMS and heat transfer to the hubs was minimal. Again, I'm more of an Green/Yellow run group driver. A more advanced driver will be harder on the brakes and generate more heat. Also, a harder-braking track than NHMS would also be an issue.

Keep the feedback coming. I have a second HPDE in Oct and will have more info.

-Brian

[EAS]

Thanks for your review, glad you had a great time out at the track! The Cool Carbon pads did well for us out at the track as well these past few events

[Chrisfast]

Originally Posted by gsrbri

Chrisfast: Let me know how you make out w/the Ferodo DS2500 pads. They are on my "to try" list. Regarding the rest of the braking system...I think w/ducting (depending on the track) the system would do much better. The floating rotors and aluminum hats, and overall mass of the system, is pretty good - from a design perspective. My rotors seemed to cool well w/one cool-down lap at NHMS and heat transfer to the hubs was minimal. Again, I'm more of an Green/Yellow run group driver. A more advanced driver will be harder on the brakes and generate more heat. Also, a harder-braking track than NHMS would also be an issue.

Keep the feedback coming. I have a second HPDE in Oct and will have more info.

-Brian

Will definitely let you know how they do. The stock rotors look like they are more than up to the task. The calipers don't though. We are also trying a little idea the foreman had with modifying the stock backing plates with X5 Diesel Plates. The X5's have scoops in them that the M3's don't. It's a cheap and not too labor intensive mod. Today is the first day that it hasn't been rainy or cold so I am going to test it out. Only did the left side so I'm hoping to see a 30 degree difference. Even a 10 degree difference I'll be happy with. Will keep you updated.
To OP, let us know if you switch brake fluid, pads, or both. It's always interesting to see what everybody's experiences are.

-Chris

[MaxL]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

A year? That was not my experience. I used SRF and I had to bleed it after 4 track days. Motul will last about 2 days. So its $64 for Motul vrs $80 for SRF.

Actually, I've found that Motul will last for 3 days but since I am now doing weekends...paying labor for a mid-weekend bleed does favor SRF.

I guess if you pay someone to bleed the brakes (definitely not a bad idea)...SRF makes a lot more sense.

It's untypical to measure life of brake fluid in number of track days - it's not really breaking up from being close to boiling, so it either boils (and you need a bleed or flush) or it does not. Getting it close to boiling without boiling it should not increase probability of boiling noticeably for the next time. What does increase probability of boiling is moisture getting sucked into the system, and Castrol SRF is much better with avoiding it, hence less frequent bleeds and flushes.

To OP - you should not be boiling the fluid if you can still run with these lower-temp pads.

Are you doing a cool-down lap? One way to boil fluid is to come in very hot and park the car - this way you eliminate air flow and red-hot disks heat up everything around them, including the fluid in calipers.

Another point is that Castrol SRF is not going to be a big difference in terms of dry boiling temp either - if you are boiling fresh ATE (536F boiling point) Castrol with it's 590F bp is not changing things much. Where it does change things is how long it stays close to it's dry boiling point - while ATE's bp would likely degrade to high 300s F within months, Castrol's is likely to stay above 500F for the whole season. But if you are boiling fresh ATE, you are likely to boil fresh Castrol as well, so it's longevity would not be a big benefit, as you'll have to flush anyway.

[EAS]

We noticed also that the wheels don’t seem to get as hot during track events with the Cool Carbon pads. Cool Carbon attributes this to one of the several fiber types they use which is a hollow ceramic fiber that channels away heat quite effectively. Heat capability is noted as exceeding 600C (1112F), but we think it goes higher. Castrol SRF and Motul RBF600 are both excellent choices to consider and the economics can help determine best choice. AP Racing also offers some excellent brake fluids. As mentioned in other threads, the Cool Carbons are not a dedicated track pad but rather a very capable combination pad that can handle some track usage especially when combined with good brake management.

Any good BBK set up should dissipate heat better than BMW stock calipers and rotors and this should increase fade resistance. We have had very good luck using CC pads with BBK kits from both BMW performance and also other popular brands of BBK’s for which CC pads are available.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by MaxL

It's untypical to measure life of brake fluid in number of track days - it's not really breaking up from being close to boiling, so it either boils (and you need a bleed or flush) or it does not. Getting it close to boiling without boiling it should not increase probability of boiling noticeably for the next time. What does increase probability of boiling is moisture getting sucked into the system, and Castrol SRF is much better with avoiding it, hence less frequent bleeds and flushes.

To OP - you should not be boiling the fluid if you can still run with these lower-temp pads.

Are you doing a cool-down lap? One way to boil fluid is to come in very hot and park the car - this way you eliminate air flow and red-hot disks heat up everything around them, including the fluid in calipers.

Another point is that Castrol SRF is not going to be a big difference in terms of dry boiling temp either - if you are boiling fresh ATE (536F boiling point) Castrol with it's 590F bp is not changing things much. Where it does change things is how long it stays close to it's dry boiling point - while ATE's bp would likely degrade to high 300s F within months, Castrol's is likely to stay above 500F for the whole season. But if you are boiling fresh ATE, you are likely to boil fresh Castrol as well, so it's longevity would not be a big benefit, as you'll have to flush anyway.

Great post! Thanks for the info. Getting OT...but the more I think about it, I had the SRF in when my pads were getting low. In fact, I went down to about 5mm of pad left until I changed them out. That could have contributed to my less than excellent experience with SRF.

[silverap1]

***shameless plug***

I've a set for sale if anyone is interested....

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=587685

[EAS]

Originally Posted by silverap1

***shameless plug***

I've a set for sale if anyone is interested....

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=587685

The pads appear to not be fully bedded and that they look like they were installed without sufficient noise free or caliper grease; this could result in possible noise and greater levels of dust until bedding is complete. It is important to follow the included instructions for bedding procedures.

[HP Autosport]

Originally Posted by STALKER

Im gonna disagree with you there. If you track your car say 6-8 times a year, SRF is cheaper in the long run because it will last an entire year easily, so no need to bleed or flush the system for the entire year.

I use to use RBF600, great stuff, but I had to do one or two mid track season bleeds(I did not do the work myself), so with labour and extra fluid, in the long run cost me more.


But this will def depend on how often you hit the track.

SRF's high dry and wet boiling point is the key. With RBF600 your boiling point decreases much quicker with usage and moisture absorption so thus the need to flush the system. SRF is much better at dealing with moisture and thus retain its high boiling point.

[1MOREMOD]

im still sort of confused on this one. i want to run stoptech or cool carbon pads on stock rotors and will installing stainless lines and higher temp fluid as well as a 3 inch duct system to the backing plates. which fluid should be used? am i going to need to bleed every other track day as some indicate? i experience some fade at the end of sessions but dont think i have boiled fluid.

[bigjae1976]

Depends. Sometimes the pedal will go a little soft but my brakes feel good after things cool down.

Other times, the pedal feels spongy even after the brakes cool...then I bleed.