Standardized instructor certification

[bigjae1976]

Not sure if this is a repost but thought this was interesting...

http://www.motorsport-safety.org/initiatives/certified

I think this will definitely change the HPDE landscape. If tracks start mandating the use of certified instructors there will be a significant shortage of instructors. So this will
Impact DE orgs and cost since you will likely need to incentivize instructors to spend more than the occasional weekend at the track.

Interested to see some discussion on this.

[Candide13]

Never heard of this organization. Are you saying BMW CCA is going to do this?

[SYT_Shadow]

It's pretty interesting

My brother and I completed the PCA instructor program this year and are now instructors. They required two weekends of mentoring, classroom sessions, mock interviews, role playing, etc. It wasn't just for play and was a lot tougher than I expected. I guess this type of scenario will become the norm in the future

At some point, organizations (yeah I'm looking at you BMWCCA) will have to drop their absurd requirement that everyone has an instructor in the car and instead only have instructors for newbies.
The rule should be instructors are required for newbies only. If someone feels like they need an instructor or the flaggers observe jackass-worthy behavior, then an instructor can ride with the student.

[Richbot]

Oh hay somebody wants to be the SFI of driver education cool said nobody ever

But if it gets instructors out of cars, I'm for it

[Candide13]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

The rule should be instructors are required for newbies only. .

Interesting, could you elaborate on this a little?

I have recently made it to the 'advanced' group in HPDE and I was certainly ambivalent about having a mandatory instructor all the time in the intermediate groups. It typically works itself out once you get solo-ed, but it still feels a little as if you are driving mostly for the instructor, like a never-ending exam on the track...

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Candide13

Interesting, could you elaborate on this a little?

I have recently made it to the 'advanced' group in HPDE and I was certainly ambivalent about having a mandatory instructor all the time in the intermediate groups. It typically works itself out once you get solo-ed, but it still feels a little as if you are driving mostly for the instructor, like a never-ending exam on the track...

I believe less instructors in cars is a good thing. Once you can get around the track without crashing, you should be left to go experiment on your own.

Flaggers should also be more aggressive black flagging jackasses. You shouldn't need an instructor inside a car to decide someone is a jackass and needs an attitude readjustment from the chief instructor.

If I ever make it to chief instructor, I will also impose a rule that people with train driver complexes will be first warned and upon a second instance be taken down one run group for the remainder of the event.
One could argue this is not a 'racing' event, however, if someone is not giving point bys I believe they are not aware of their surroundings so they should be demoted to a lower run group, continuing until they are capable of driving and looking out their mirrors.

PCA allows around 50% of its groups to run without instructors. So, basically once you are going fast you're on your own.

BMWCCA believes mandatory instruction at all levels is wonderful. If they could, they might assign a lunchtime instructor to you as well to make sure you don't eat too fast.

Most of the times, instructors don't know much about driving, aren't interested in their student going faster in the first place because they are scared and don't trust the student, etc. So why would an intermediate or advanced driver want someone in their car?

[dparm]

This is an intriguing concept, as there is basically no standardized definition of instructor beyond "the event organizer said so". Maybe some clubs do have requirements, but if they do, it's mostly transparent to me as a participant.

The lack of standardization is what I find frustrating, though maybe it's more noticeable since I run with tons of different clubs.

Still, a newcomer would probably find the inconsistency difficult to understand and that could lead to an unsafe situation (e.g. doesn't realize they're a "beginner" in that club and makes a critical mistake on the track).

[Candide13]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

BMWCCA believes mandatory instruction at all levels is wonderful. If they could, they might assign a lunchtime instructor to you as well to make sure you don't eat too fast.

Most of the times, instructors don't know much about driving, aren't interested in their student going faster in the first place because they are scared and don't trust the student, etc. So why would an intermediate or advanced driver want someone in their car?

Funny hehe. I totally get your point of view.

If things progress further I've been thinking about the instructor role myself in the future and a lot of these issues have been on my mind. It is also not clear to me whether instructors for typical club events are scarce or a dime a dozen. I've been to events where instructors on their comp'ed attendance tickets outnumbered the paying students and I've been to events where the organizers sent out desperate last minute appeals for instructors to accommodate students on the wait list.

The other issue is that indeed there has to be a significant difference in driving skill for instruction to be useful! This is easy with a complete novice, for whom the advice from anyone who has done any performance driving at all is worth a lot. Much less clear once the student is intermediate, especially when the instructor's car is very different from the student's.

I actually liked the take of my last instructor, who is running a prepped 996 GT3, and who basically said that the best thing to progress at my intermediate/advanced level is to get the occasional paid session with an actual pro coach.

Anyhow, bit of going on, but still on topic I think.

[bigjae1976]

Interesting so far...

If you feel like the instructor is judgemental ballast then they aren't doing their jobs.

Maybe I'm off base but I've seen more hack job instructors running around over the past year than ever before. Simply due to growth and not having enough well trained instructors. I know of one DE org that has an instructor who is an intermediate driver in other DE orgs who have a pretty high standard.

Most of all, the sport lacks instructors of character. Unfortunately, there's no training for that. I've been to an event where a good number of instructors leave early but their students are still there. So students are waiting on the grid for an instructor.

Then the students...I don't need an instructor. I witnessed a guy who thought he was solo qualified material that could barely execute a pass without causing confusion and almost caused an accident. Of all things you need to do to be solo qualified...

Nowadays...it feels like I'm running into more and more dipsh1ts with too much money and not enough brains. Some even drive BMWs.

All that above creates the issues we have today. Realistically...more people will need to get hurt or killed before this instructor certification idea takes hold.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by Candide13

I actually liked the take of my last instructor, who is running a prepped 996 GT3, and who basically said that the best thing to progress at my intermediate/advanced level is to get the occasional paid session with an actual pro coach.

Totally agree. I've had instructors in my car for a few laps at unfamiliar tracks merely to help me learn the line and some of the track's nuances, but the day I spent at Bondurant was exponentially more useful and helped me make several things second-nature. The school is SCCA, NASA, and VARA accredited and satisfies some of the requirements for a pro license.

People can balk all they want at the prices, but I guarantee you will have a blast and learn a lot. I may go back this winter for more advanced stuff -- still undecided between the advanced Bondurant classes, Ron Fellows, or Skip Barber.

[Estoril Blue]

There are many club instructors that come from very rigorous and structured instructor development programs. The concept of a national "certification" is appealing - and PCA and BMWCCA have worked on those national standards problem and both have arrived at a carefully considered set of standards, each for themselves. As I understand it - that took years and much work. Both organizations have the benefit of hands-on implementation - both in observing and vetting potential instructor candidates, in instructor
school content, classroom work and on-track work.

Standards are good - but some organizations have already carefully developed them and have them in place now. Plus they have hands-on experience with the actual instructor/candidate.

That isn't to say that all DE organizations have the same rigorous instructor development programs and standards. They don't. If you want a loosely organized event with relaxed standards - they are out there. Want a DE organization where any turnip can get in your run group and show you what he can do? Those events can be found. There is a range of DE organization rigor and quality. Choose which you want.

I think its unrealistic to think that DE orgs that are known to have loose methods are going to suddenly embrace these promoted standards and truly implement them. Virtual standards are one thing. Actually implementing them is far, far different proposition....and I don't see less structured orgs doing it. A sticker on a helmet after an online course?

The premise attempts to lump all HPDE organizations and their instructor development and safety practices into one group - and then draw quick conclusions from that over-simplification.

An attempt to do this seems aimed at those DE orgs with less structure and less-developed (or no) instructor training programs.

[SYT_Shadow]

In the end, due to safety concerns my brother and I only instruct in the PCA club that is our home club.

I know that there, if a student is behaving erratically the chief instructor will tear him a new one and back me up. I couldn't imagine being at an event where as an instructor I feel the organization doesn't have my back

[Richbot]

Most instructors are making this shit up as they go along, I know, btdt, make shit up myself, and I fall into the category of "experienced" with my 17 years of motorsports and 12 years holding a competition license and competing wheel to wheel. Seen others do it, people I respect too. Because, of course, there is no one right answer, you have to improvise for each student to get a result that works for that student.

Data driven instruction with ship to shore coms and post-session review is the future, but should be the present, and I have no idea why we're pretending putting a sack of meat with no control over the situation in the passenger seat, multiplying the risk of harm to a person by two, is preferable to finding any and all ways to do this remotely when you can spend $100 on apps and and an old phone and have a more powerful DAQ system (the most valuable teaching tool there is) than many pro racing teams had 20 years ago. Actually I know exactly why, it's inertia and that's how we've always done it /soapbox

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Most instructors are making this shit up as they go along, I know, btdt, make shit up myself, and I fall into the category of "experienced" with my 17 years of motorsports and 12 years holding a competition license and competing wheel to wheel. Seen others do it, people I respect too. Because, of course, there is no one right answer, you have to improvise for each student to get a result that works for that student.

Data driven instruction with ship to shore coms and post-session review is the future, but should be the present, and I have no idea why we're pretending putting a sack of meat with no control over the situation in the passenger seat, multiplying the risk of harm to a person by two, is preferable to finding any and all ways to do this remotely when you can spend $100 on apps and and an old phone and have a more powerful DAQ system (the most valuable teaching tool there is) than many pro racing teams had 20 years ago. Actually I know exactly why, it's inertia and that's how we've always done it /soapbox

Hard to argue with this!

[VictorH]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

I believe less instructors in cars is a good thing. Once you can get around the track without crashing, you should be left to go experiment on your own.


PCA allows around 50% of its groups to run without instructors. So, basically once you are going fast you're on your own.



Most of the times, instructors don't know much about driving, aren't interested in their student going faster in the first place because they are scared and don't trust the student, etc. So why would an intermediate or advanced driver want someone in their car?

This is why 90% of my DE events are PCA or independent clubs. Would l like to have a really experienced instructor who can give me tips on the finer points? Sure, but unfortunately that's a really rare event. Probably as mentioned above once you get to a certain level the only way to "improve" if you are going for time, is a decent data acquisition system. I'd like to get a nice system some day but get enough basic data from just Harry's lap timer (no video) to make some improvements if you focus on working on a given corner or two at a time.

[FogCityM3]

Hooked on Driving is now offering data acquisition based instruction.

As far as "advanced" group people not wanting/needing any instruction, I think it really depends on the quality of the club. In CA, certain organizations like BMWCCA and PCA have first-rate instructors and I know several in advanced groups that have open mind and willingly want to get critiques or be presented with alternative approaches to their line.

I always viewed the BMCCA and PCA track events really getting check-ins on nitpicking (much like regular golf lessons from instructor) then I have other track days with other organizations to get solo time where I can experiment with the tips I've learned.

As far as having standards, think it's a good thing as others mentioned there are also key areas to know how to deal with ego/competence issues (besides driving) and being able to deliver a firm message while not making a driver uncomfortable. Agree that some instructors have poor personalities/character and could probably use some people relations training.

[admranger]

Given the huge pay and benefits I've received as an instructor...wait...that never happened...

I don't begrudge BMW CCA for any instructor requirements b/c I owe the CCA, especially the Pacific region, pretty much my entire motorsports and HPDE career. They err on the side of being safely conservative. Some don't like that but I know I'm more comfortable driving at a CCA event than others (though PCA/POC are right up there, depending on the chapter).

As far as bitching about having an instructor in the car, I'll share this with you all. One of my last "students" was TC Kline at the BMW CCA Oktoberfest at Laguna. TC has done 1000's of laps there. I was certifiably right seat ballast. TC needed an instructor like I need more people screaming at each other on TV. TC didn't whine, bitch, moan, or complain about it at all. We had a great time chatting about different approaches to the track whilst lapping the "A" group 2 times in the first session.

I seek out other instructors to ride with me when I go out on track. The learning curve flattens out when the instructor steps out of the car. I'm always learning when I have an instructor in the car. If you're not, you're doing it wrong.

Now, do I go out and "play" on track with other orgs from time to time with no instructor in the car? Hell yeah! Am I learning anything? Nope. Just turning gas, tires, and brake pads into noise. Good fun though.

[FogCityM3]

^^ Comes as no surprise that the best drivers are usually the most open minded about continuous learning. TC is an extremely fast driver.

[Candide13]

One advantage of attending clubs events with lots of instructor involvement is the availability of getting a passenger ride with your instructor. Those rides have always been highlights for me and sometimes were truly eye opening.

[bigjae1976]

Thinking a little more about this...

This is looking more like a money grab to me. Online training? So what does the live training look like?

Then why would established DE orgs with good programs even want to get involved in this? Would PCA follow this? They don't need this...they have their own program.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Thinking a little more about this...

This is looking more like a money grab to me. Online training? So what does the live training look like?

Then why would established DE orgs with good programs even want to get involved in this? Would PCA follow this? They don't need this...they have their own program.

I have trouble seeing BMWCCA or PCA doing this. They have established programs and are pretty proud of their heritage

[Richbot]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Thinking a little more about this...

This is looking more like a money grab to me. Online training? So what does the live training look like?

Then why would established DE orgs with good programs even want to get involved in this? Would PCA follow this? They don't need this...they have their own program.

Yep that was my thought behind my SFI for instructor certification comments. YOUR STICKER IS OUT OF DATE $500 PLEASE CAN'T SAY NO IT'S FOR SAFETY