BFG R1 or R1S

[M3 Number 86]

Asked around and so far my understanding:

R1 holds heat better and will last more laps consistently at a time. R1S will get up to temp a lot faster and have tons of grip for a few laps. R1S also have more heat cycles so long as you don't overheat them so much per session

Im mostly looking for quick laps. I already do 4-5 max hot laps per session.

R1 or R1S? Thoughts? Experiences?

thanks in advance.

[1MOREMOD]

I already told you this tardlet. The r1s is basically an autocross or time attack tire and you will wreck it in a day or 2. If you wanna set lap records for yourself these will work but you will need a dozen sets for the season.

[trackm4]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

I already told you this tardlet....

[okusa]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

I already told you this tardlet. The r1s is basically an autocross or time attack tire and you will wreck it in a day or 2. If you wanna set lap records for yourself these will work but you will need a dozen sets for the season.

That's not my understanding. Dogbone runs the R1S and gets about 20 hear cycles and his data shows they are definitely faster than TD.

[1MOREMOD]

Interesting. Thought they were like c51or a7. An autocross version of another track tire

[Kong Sheng Han]

Buy Pirelli slicks.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

I already told you this tardlet. The r1s is basically an autocross or time attack tire and you will wreck it in a day or 2. If you wanna set lap records for yourself these will work but you will need a dozen sets for the season.

And then I got conflicting statements. Investigation is still ongoing.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by okusa

That's not my understanding. Dogbone runs the R1S and gets about 20 hear cycles and his data shows they are definitely faster than TD.

I'm waiting for dogbone's response too. I think he did mention that you do have to manage the tires though. I'm also guessing that his car toasts tires much harder than mine would so maybe I can get some more heat cycles out of them too. These days I only run about three sessions per day.

[1MOREMOD]

I've never run the r1s but like the r1

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

I've never run the r1s but like the r1

How many hc usually?
Do they take long to bring up to temp?
Breakaway characteristics?

Some of the fast guys down here use the S.

[okusa]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

I'm waiting for dogbone's response too. I think he did mention that you do have to manage the tires though. I'm also guessing that his car toasts tires much harder than mine would so maybe I can get some more heat cycles out of them too. These days I only run about three sessions per day.

I ran TD and R1S back to back at Chuckwalla. You have to manage TDs more carefully since they get annoyed after 2 (3 max) hot laps. R1S have no problem running 4-5, but the car gets too hot after 3 so it doesn't matter much.

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

How many hc usually?
Do they take long to bring up to temp?
Breakaway characteristics?

Some of the fast guys down here use the S.

TDs consistently take 1 warm up lap. However, R1S definitely prefer 2. I prefer the breakaway of the R1S as it is a little more progressive and it slides more predictably. I find that TDs don't like to slide and when they do you better back off or it's very difficult to recover from a likely spin. I think heat cycles are very similar though the edge may go slightly to the R1S.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

I'm waiting for dogbone's response too. I think he did mention that you do have to manage the tires though. I'm also guessing that his car toasts tires much harder than mine would so maybe I can get some more heat cycles out of them too. These days I only run about three sessions per day.

hehe I figured since I've only run R1S and not R1, that I'd stay out of this one. But if you're asking my thoughts about R1S----well, let me jump right in!

The R1S is a wonderful tire. Again, I can't compare to R1, but I can compare it extensively to the Hankook TD Soft. The R1S is superior to TD's in four ways:

-It's faster than a TD
-A 285 R1S is wider than a 295 TD. However the R1S is lighter. 285 R1S - 25 lbs 4oz. 295 TD - 28lbs 4 oz. (I've been measuring all my tires on a new digital scale.)
-It loses grip and regains grip more gracefully (smoother) than a TD
-It can run many more hot laps in a row without needing cool-down laps than a TD. In this regard the R1S is very much like a slick.

The price is comparable on the two tires---somewhere in the $1300-ish range.

Now, as far as me toasting tires---actually I think the weight of the car is quite important here. I get 14-16 heat cycles where the tire is pretty darn quick (cycles 1-8 really fast, 9-16 darn good). At that point, usually one of the tires shows a little cording. I'll keep the others and assemble them into scrub sets and get maybe another 5 heat cycles out of them for a total of around 20. My car weighs 3250lbs. And this is with me rotating the tires after every two sessions. If you don't rotate R1S or TD, they'll be dead much quicker.

I was talking to Joe at Trinity Autosport. He runs R1S on their shop project M3. We run generally similar times these days within a second or two. His car weighs 400 lbs less than mine. He was at 2850lbs when I last saw him. He was saying that he can get 23 heat cycles out of his R1S. 16 for me on my initial run on the tires versus 23 for him is a pretty big difference. And we both run aero.

Given that both cars are doing similar lap times, I'm going to say the weight is the thing here. Yes, I have a blower and he doesn't, but I don't go around the track laying down stripes of rubber. In fact, I try hard to stay at the grip limit and not slide them around.

If your M3 is closer to stock weight in the 3600 lbs range, I think that will be tougher on the tires and it's possible you may get less use out of a set. I don't know your setup or your lap times, but let's say you run slower than Joe or me, then maybe that would gain you some longevity back.

R1S seem to like a bit more than one lap of warm up. If the car is completely cold off of a trailer, I cannot warm up brakes and tires in a single lap. The main problem is the rear tires. Sure you can stomp on your brakes a few times and get the fronts all toasty, but that don't do nuthin' for the rear tires. The rear tires need some speed. Unfortunately, I can tell you with great authority that you don't want to jam on the gas when the R1S are not hot enough......Anyway, a tire like a TD can be good to go in a single lap. Now, if it's the middle of the day and the brakes are generally warm from prior use, it is more possible to get R1S up to temp in one lap, but you gotta be moving pretty good. Otherwise, be patient and just get a second lap in before dropping the hammer.

The R1S is very civil as it approaches grip limit. And once it goes past, it's not hard to get it back. TD grinds harder past the grip limit.

I heard someone say generically, to use R1 in hot weather and R1S in cold weather. Nah, I just use R1S all the time. hehe Actually I would like to try R1, but it seems like a waste of money to try the "slower" version of the tire just to see what happens given that I'm not having any problems. Of course, I keep buying TD's which is a slower tire. I guess that doesn't seem to make much sense, does it? But I like the TD as a good solid staple tire. The R1S is the slightly more high strung almost-slick.

To be honest, after the fast portion of a set of tires is used up, I'm sorta done with them. Since I have three sets of rims, I usually do keep them and run them, but definitely not all day. I don't think I'd want a tire that can do 50 heat cycles if the last 20 were low grip. That would be a several days worth of slow sessions. But again, with multiple sets of rims, it's not such a big deal. Some times you just want to run scrubs and it's nice to have them.

And again, be aware that the R1S runs REALLY wide. If you're tight on space given your damper setup or spring perch placement or whatever, the big boxy shoulder along with the width can be too much.

[1MOREMOD]

The r1 also runs very wide. I use the 265s because don't think 275 will even fit as the 265 is wider than any 275 I've ever had

[ThunderMoose]

Question - why compare R1 or R1s to TD? The comparable Hankook is the Z214 which is a 40tw like R1 and R1s. How do they compare with that or with R7?

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

Question - why compare R1 or R1s to TD? The comparable Hankook is the Z214 which is a 40tw like R1 and R1s. How do they compare with that or with R7?

TD in 295 width is faster than a Z214 which tops out at a 275. And TD was faster than an R6 in the same width. I drove fresh sets of both tires on the same day and the TD was simply a faster tire. My friend in his GT3 confirmed the same thing---TD faster than R6. (I haven't tried R7 yet.)

Don't get too hung up on Treadwear ratings. They don't mean a whole lot.

Let me give you a few examples of what I mean:

-a Hankook TD comes in hard and soft compounds. Both are listed at 80 TW. That makes NOOO sense at all. The soft compound is nice and grippy--way faster than the RS3. The hard compound is not grippy at all, barely faster than an RS3, but it does last FORVER. They should have two different ratings if the rating is solely based on grip.

-Again, 80TW TD is faster than 40TW Z214. There's a dude with a fully prepped E46 who ran Z214 all the time at Buttonwillow. He showed up at Buttonwillow one day with TD's and immediately dropped significant time from his PB.

-The 80TW TD Soft was faster than Hoosier R6 at 40 TW. The TD braked better and held grip longer in corners better. (The R6 slides more elegantly past the grip limit.)

-R7 and A7 both are rated a 40TW. Again, that's just silly. They should not be rated the same.

-R1 and R1S are both listed at 40TW. Again, this makes no sense given that everyone says R1 is not as fast....

-The RE71 at 200 TW is killing it out there. I have not run it, but many seem to think it can give an NT-01 at 100TW a run for it's money. That's just silly. RE71 is a street tire, and NT-01 is supposed to be an R-comp (perhaps an old technology R-comp at this point, but still an R-comp)....Guys are using RE71 in time attack as a total cheater tire in lower classes.

My point is that Treadwear ratings seem to be highly subjective and don't make a whole lot of sense to me. You just gotta drive a tire and get a sense of it's abilities.

Anyway, the OP asked for my input, so I compared R1S and TD because those are two tires that I know very well now, and they're fairly close in terms of the lap times they can achieve---generally within 2 seconds of each other, with the R1S generally being the faster tire.

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by dogbone

TD in 295 width is faster than a Z214 which tops out at a 275. And TD was faster than an R6 in the same width. I drove fresh sets of both tires on the same day and the TD was simply a faster tire. My friend in his GT3 confirmed the same thing---TD faster than R6. (I haven't tried R7 yet.)

Don't get too hung up on Treadwear ratings. They don't mean a whole lot.

Let me give you a few examples of what I mean:

-a Hankook TD comes in hard and soft compounds. Both are listed at 80 TW. That makes NOOO sense at all. The soft compound is nice and grippy--way faster than the RS3. The hard compound is not grippy at all, barely faster than an RS3, but it does last FORVER. They should have two different ratings if the rating is solely based on grip.

-Again, 80TW TD is faster than 40TW Z214. There's a dude with a fully prepped E46 who ran Z214 all the time at Buttonwillow. He showed up at Buttonwillow one day with TD's and immediately dropped significant time from his PB.

-The 80TW TD Soft was faster than Hoosier R6 at 40 TW. The TD braked better and held grip longer in corners better. (The R6 slides more elegantly past the grip limit.)

-R7 and A7 both are rated a 40TW. Again, that's just silly. They should not be rated the same.

-R1 and R1S are both listed at 40TW. Again, this makes no sense given that everyone says R1 is not as fast....

-The RE71 at 200 TW is killing it out there. I have not run it, but many seem to think it can give an NT-01 at 100TW a run for it's money. That's just silly. RE71 is a street tire, and NT-01 is supposed to be an R-comp (perhaps an old technology R-comp at this point, but still an R-comp)....Guys are using RE71 in time attack as a total cheater tire in lower classes.

My point is that Treadwear ratings seem to be highly subjective and don't make a whole lot of sense to me. You just gotta drive a tire and get a sense of it's abilities.

Anyway, the OP asked for my input, so I compared R1S and TD because those are two tires that I know very well now, and they're fairly close in terms of the lap times they can achieve---generally within 2 seconds of each other, with the R1S generally being the faster tire.

Good points on TW. PSC2 is a 180 tw tire and as you mention RE-71r's are 200tw. Both of which are very quick.

I have limited experience on TD's. I ran them once 3 years ago when I started Time Trials and thought they were a pretty fast tire, but certainly not one that you could pound out a ton of consecutive laps in like you could with NT01's or even R6/R7's. I have much more experience with Hoosier A7's and Z214's. All of this on an E46M3.

I recently went a second faster at TWS than the current TT3 track record. This was in 5HC Z214's. Weather was much cooler so not an apples to apples comparison. Point being they were friggin fast.

I'll be back at TWS in April in NASA but with sticker A7's. Though the weather will be a tad bit warmer, I think I will still have a chance to improve on the time I set with the kooks.

Also since the Z214's are less expensive than TD's and Hoosiers, they are my new practice tires. I love the longevity of NT01's but compared to Z214's and A7/R7, they are too much slower to be helpful in practicing for TT's.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

I have limited experience on TD's. I ran them once 3 years ago when I started Time Trials and thought they were a pretty fast tire, but certainly not one that you could pound out a ton of consecutive laps in like you could with NT01's or even R6/R7's. I have much more experience with Hoosier A7's and Z214's. All of this on an E46M3.

Yeah TD's do not like tons of hot laps in a row. They definitely benefit from a cool down lap. That's fine for my car because my car engine gets quite hot.

As far as Z214, which compound do you run? I just can't get over the fact that Z214 don't go over 275.....I want 295's on my car. The edges on a wider tire survive longer than the narrower tires. When the E9x M3 leans over, you want the fattest tire possible with a lot of negative camber to resist edge wear. When I used to run 265 TD's in the front, the edges of those tires would show massive edge wear after one session......Once I put 295 up there, the edges lasted a LOT longer.

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by dogbone

Yeah TD's do not like tons of hot laps in a row. They definitely benefit from a cool down lap. That's fine for my car because my car engine gets quite hot.

As far as Z214, which compound do you run? I just can't get over the fact that Z214 don't go over 275.....I want 295's on my car. The edges on a wider tire survive longer than the narrower tires. When the E9x M3 leans over, you want the fattest tire possible with a lot of negative camber to resist edge wear. When I used to run 265 TD's in the front, the edges of those tires would show massive edge wear after one session......Once I put 295 up there, the edges lasted a LOT longer.

C51's. I also have to run 245's for NASA to make class. But my car only weighs 3150 with me and full tank of gas. Tire wear is pretty consistent. I usually run out of HC/magic before the cords show.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

C51's. I also have to run 245's for NASA to make class. But my car only weighs 3150 with me and full tank of gas. Tire wear is pretty consistent. I usually run out of HC/magic before the cords show.

Your car is darn light! So, if you're car is empty, no fuel no driver, you must be in the high 28xxlbs range. I wish my car could be that light. But it's around $18k more from my current 3250lbs (empty, no fuel) just to get to around 3000lbs in my E90.....not worth it for me. To get to 2850 from 3250 would require ditching the blower and REALLY going crazy.....I don't see that in my future. The car is fast enough for my purposes.

Have you ever tried C71 or C91 in the Z214? They should be faster than the C51 Medium compound.

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by dogbone

Your car is darn light! So, if you're car is empty, no fuel no driver, you must be in the high 28xxlbs range. I wish my car could be that light. But it's around $18k more from my current 3250lbs (empty, no fuel) just to get to around 3000lbs in my E90.....not worth it for me. To get to 2850 from 3250 would require ditching the blower and REALLY going crazy.....I don't see that in my future. The car is fast enough for my purposes.

Have you ever tried C71 or C91 in the Z214? They should be faster than the C51 Medium compound.

I haven't. I bought them mainly to practice and to save my A7's for competition.

I had my car down to 2700 pounds with 1/4 tank without driver but had to add back weight.

Here's a link to my build. I wish I had more pictures in it.

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=509148

[Datka]

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

I haven't. I bought them mainly to practice and to save my A7's for competition.

I had my car down to 2700 pounds with 1/4 tank without driver but had to add back weight.

Here's a link to my build. I wish I had more pictures in it.

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=509148

So its e46m3, not e9x. I have never seen e9x m cars that light even with crazy weight reduction.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by Datka

So its e46m3, not e9x. I have never seen e9x m cars that light even with crazy weight reduction.

My understanding is the Racewerkz Engineering shop E92 race car is in the upper 27xxlbs range now. That car has gone to CRAZY TOWN though. I mean----like kraaaazy town.

I believe the Yost Autosport E92 got to around 2800lbs. They did some pretty crazy stuff there too.

The Trinity Autosport car was 2850lbs as of a few months ago. Perhaps Joe could shed some light on where the car is now.

With my blower and DCT, it's not in the cards for me to get anywhere near those weights. Another $18k to drop 250 more pounds just to get to 3000lbs for me is a tough sell.....