What did this guy do wrong?

[Kong Sheng Han]

My guess is that braking too late/close to transition contributed to it? Sorry, physics isn't my strongest subject, so I had to ask.

I take the same line and shed some speed at around the 0:14 mark, and I don't touch the brakes again until I have passed the transition.

[cenix]

Looks like the guy inadvertently trailbraked, assisted by the slope and the bump immediately after helped out some more. By the way, was he racing into the pits or is that the course?

[dparm]

Man, that looks tricky. You're coming in very fast on a banked surface and transitioning quickly to a level surface while turning. The pavement doesn't look like it's very smooth or well-maintained either.

I've never driven such a corner, but my guess is that right as the front of the car transitioned to that level surface, the suspension loading made the rear of the car get very light -- and when the wheel is turned and the rear lightens up, you get oversteer. He hit the brakes which only lightens the rear further. I could be wrong though. We also don't know how the car was setup, condition of the tires, etc.

Having watched that video a few times now, and thinking back to what I learned at some tracks with "jumps", I probably would have not been on the gas or throttle through that entire section.

Anyone else have thoughts?

[jphughan]

You always, always, ALWAYS cross that transition at TWS in that direction on at least maintenance throttle to keep the rear end more planted and with the steering wheel pointed straight ahead or close to it, and the farther away from parallel to the direction of the transition your chosen line takes you across it, the more critical that is. That guy came in from the high side, which is common for M3s out there, but he should have braked in a straight line prior to turning in, not braked while turning in and hanging onto the brake across the transition. And on a side note, he also should have transitioned from throttle to brake more quickly.

Fun fact: TWS was originally built to run the opposite direction, but it was determined that when crossing that transition in the opposite direction in a high-horsepower car, they would be going fast enough (thanks to the T2 sweeper that precedes it in that direction) that the rear end could get loose and send cars up into the wall at the top of the oval. Amateur organizations still ran it that way on occasion for HPDE variety (two tracks in one location!), but at a recent clockwise event someone had a seizure behind the wheel and apparently damaged some critical part of the track right around that transition, so even they're not allowed to run clockwise anymore. When I was running clockwise I would try to get pretty parallel to the transition and limit my throttle while driving across it.

Originally Posted by dparm

Man, that looks tricky. You're coming in very fast on a banked surface and transitioning quickly to a level surface while turning. The pavement doesn't look like it's very smooth or well-maintained either.

I've never driven such a corner, but my guess is that right as the front of the car transitioned to that level surface, the suspension loading made the rear of the car get very light -- and when the wheel is turned and the rear lightens up, you get oversteer. He hit the brakes which only lightens the rear further. I could be wrong though. We also don't know how the car was setup, condition of the tires, etc.

Having watched that video a few times now, and thinking back to what I learned at some tracks with "jumps", I probably would have not been on the gas or throttle through that entire section.

Anyone else have thoughts?

His car got out of sorts long before he got to the transition, and it was because he started cornering under braking at a high speed. But yes, the track surface is indeed rough and not well-maintained at all -- you should see the rest of the facility. Apparently TWS was quite the destination several decades ago (opened in 1967 I believe, hence the lack of modern safety design including corner worker stations on the inside of corners), but the grandstands were condemned a while back, so it hasn't hosted pro racing in a very long time. It's been slated to be razed and replaced with condos and the like for years now -- the fact that nearby College Station has exploded has probably been murder on the track's property taxes -- but thus far it's always managed to get a stay of execution for a variety of reasons, the most recent being that the oil-funded current owners don't have as much money to redevelop the land now that gas prices are so far down. There's also always talk of new owners buying it with the intention of keeping it open, but nothing's final until it's final. But that transition in particular is extremely rough; in some low cars like Corvettes you can hear aero undertrays scraping when crossing it.

The track is an absolute blast though -- very fast, with long straights that reward high horsepower cars as well as fairly light braking zones and fast corners that reward momentum cars. Not especially challenging compared to a track like CotA, but still a huge thrill. Unless of course you go off, where the very rough and patchy ground can do a number on your car in many areas -- and when it's wet it's even worse.

[MSteve5036]

The back looked pretty light to me even before he transitioned off the banking

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by cenix

Looks like the guy inadvertently trailbraked, assisted by the slope and the bump immediately after helped out some more. By the way, was he racing into the pits or is that the course?

That's the course. Here's a video with a decent view of the track in that direction. Not crazy about his line, but GT-Rs let you do strange things, I guess.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by jphughan

That's the course. Here's a video with a decent view of the track in that direction. Not crazy about his line, but GT-Rs let you do strange things, I guess.

Indeed , GT-Rs let you do strange things...

[Kong Sheng Han]

The track is pretty rough. The transition is scary IMO, and I can't imagine coming off the banking at full throttle, which some people seem to do in videos I've watched. I just give a little bit of throttle. I've had the rear become squirrelly under braking well after the transition, but that's it.

Video of me on track

Originally Posted by jphughan

That guy came in from the high side, which is common for M3s out there, but he should have braked in a straight line prior to turning in, not braked while turning in and hanging onto the brake across the transition. And on a side note, he also should have transitioned from throttle to brake more quickly.

The track is an absolute blast though -- very fast, with long straights that reward high horsepower cars as well as fairly light braking zones and fast corners that reward momentum cars. Not especially challenging compared to a track like CotA, but still a huge thrill. Unless of course you go off, where the very rough and patchy ground can do a number on your car in many areas -- and when it's wet it's even worse.

Isn't he using the "Porsche line?" That's the line that instructors teach because it's safer, from what I've been told. I want to try an earlier approach but not sure if it'd be safe.

I'm still hoping track doesn't close after June. My favorite turn is T7. Really scary at first, but now it's really fun.

[ThunderMoose]

Here's a video from my recent event at TWS with NASA. Skip ahead to 3:35 for start of my hot lap.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by Kong Sheng Han

The track is pretty rough. The transition is scary IMO, and I can't imagine coming off the banking at full throttle, which some people seem to do in videos I've watched. I just give a little bit of throttle. I've had the rear become squirrelly under braking well after the transition, but that's it.

Isn't he using the "Porsche line?" That's the line that instructors teach because it's safer, from what I've been told. I want to try an earlier approach but not sure if it'd be safe.

I'm still hoping track doesn't close after June. My favorite turn is T7. Really scary at first, but now it's really fun.

I wouldn't feel confident on full throttle either, and I too have had the rear get a bit squirrelly on T2 braking, but it's rare. As for line, BMWs and Porsches seem to turn in from the middle or top of the oval, whereas momentum cars (Lotus, S2K, Miata) and for some reason many Corvettes tend to stay low. I always figured the lower horsepower cars just didn't want to lose speed climbing up the banking, but I can't account for the Corvettes and haven't asked any Corvette drivers.

I tend to prefer the high side turn-in because you can get more of your rotation done for T2 earlier that way, you have a great vantage point to check your placement on track, and the cell tower makes for an excellent reference point with that line. On the other hand, I suppose staying low means the transition might not be as rough (maybe those Corvette owners got tired of scraping their aero undertrays?), you probably have to brake less or not at all until you're into the sweeper, and as long as you can still get the line right despite having a crappier vantage point from down low, I bet you're faster overall from prior to the transition until T2 exit by turning it into one giant corner rather than braking on the oval for a sharper turn-in, straight-lining the first half of the sweeper, and braking hard before going through the second half.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by jphughan

That's the course. Here's a video with a decent view of the track in that direction. Not crazy about his line, but GT-Rs let you do strange things, I guess.

I would also bet the GT-R had some of the stability assistance stuff engaged. His entry was definitely more parallel than the E46. So the suspension wasn't quite as loaded.

Regardless, that transition looks scary and the track's litany of patchwork doesn't exactly scream "safety".

[Kong Sheng Han]

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

Here's a video from my recent event at TWS with NASA. Skip ahead to 3:35 for start of my hot lap.

That's the approach I've wanted to try. Did you run into car problems during lap 2?

Originally Posted by jphughan

I wouldn't feel confident on full throttle either, and I too have had the rear get a bit squirrelly on T2 braking, but it's rare. As for line, BMWs and Porsches seem to turn in from the middle or top of the oval, whereas momentum cars (Lotus, S2K, Miata) and for some reason many Corvettes tend to stay low. I always figured the lower horsepower cars just didn't want to lose speed climbing up the banking, but I can't account for the Corvettes and haven't asked any Corvette drivers.

I tend to prefer the high side turn-in because you can get more of your rotation done for T2 earlier that way, you have a great vantage point to check your placement on track, and the cell tower makes for an excellent reference point with that line. On the other hand, I suppose staying low means the transition might not be as rough (maybe those Corvette owners got tired of scraping their aero undertrays?), you probably have to brake less or not at all until you're into the sweeper, and as long as you can still get the line right despite having a crappier vantage point from down low, I bet you're faster overall from prior to the transition until T2 exit by turning it into one giant corner rather than braking on the oval for a sharper turn-in, straight-lining the first half of the sweeper, and braking hard before going through the second half.

Good points!

[bigjae1976]

He was coasting down the hill. Probably doesn't trust the throttle...but throttle will save you.

Coming high off the bank is pretty much bottoming out your suspension. When I ride in cars that take that line, it jars my back. I think it's really hard on the car.

I take the low line in both directions but there's a big bump both ways in the brake zone. Doesn't hurt my back and is easier to manage but it's something to be aware of. Most of all...you're not in the ditch or not taking out the corner worker station if you lift.

TWS was in crappy shape the last time I drive it 2 years ago. Can't imagine it's much better. I've seen so many crashes at TWS.

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by Kong Sheng Han

That's the approach I've wanted to try. Did you run into car problems during lap 2?

No problems, but with NASA TT, you can be DQ'd if you have 4 off + 1st hot lap is typically the fastest. So rather than try to push it, go off and be DQ'd, I came in to log my time.

I actually reset the track record for TT3, but Greg Smith came through a couple seconds later and beat me by 0.07 seconds.

As others mentioned, I think the mid to high line is too unsettling to the car. You have to be on some form of throttle coming off the transition to keep ass end planted. Coasting works for some people. You can see the driver actually brakes in the transition. Worst possible place.

[M3 Number 86]

He got some lazy feet during the spin too. Shouldn't you be both feet in?

[Kong Sheng Han]

Originally Posted by ThunderMoose

No problems, but with NASA TT, you can be DQ'd if you have 4 off + 1st hot lap is typically the fastest. So rather than try to push it, go off and be DQ'd, I came in to log my time.

I actually reset the track record for TT3, but Greg Smith came through a couple seconds later and beat me by 0.07 seconds.

As others mentioned, I think the mid to high line is too unsettling to the car. You have to be on some form of throttle coming off the transition to keep ass end planted. Coasting works for some people. You can see the driver actually brakes in the transition. Worst possible place.

Makes sense. Congrats on PB, and lol at Greg's two winged M3. I saw the overrev at T13. That's where I took my car to 85-8600 RPM.

I'm gonna try your approach to T1 in two weeks. Will probably ask an instructor with an M3 to come with me for guidance.

At my first event I scared the shit out of my instructor by braking at transition, and he wouldn't let me go past 110 on the straight the whole weekend because of that.

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

He got some lazy feet during the spin too. Shouldn't you be both feet in?

That's what I naturally do when I spin out during autocross.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

He got some lazy feet during the spin too. Shouldn't you be both feet in?

By the time you hit 90 degrees of yaw, yes. He tried to save it with countersteer for a while, which you can't do if you've already got both feet in. Going both feet in is giving up on the save and hoping that keeping your steering wheel pointed where you want to go will take you to a reasonable spot.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by jphughan

By the time you hit 90 degrees of yaw, yes. He tried to save it with countersteer for a while, which you can't do if you've already got both feet in. Going both feet in is giving up on the save and hoping that keeping your steering wheel pointed where you want to go will take you to a reasonable spot.

LOL he wasn't saving shit there - unless you shouldn't get on brakes because of grass.

[Jive]

What is the reasoning behind both feet in?

[nholmes]

No thanks on that transition!

Looks like you hit that at 80mph Kong Sheng Han, but far lower on the hill than the driver in that first video posted. It looks like the left side is far smoother than the right side of that transition?

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by M3 Number 86

LOL he wasn't saving shit there - unless you shouldn't get on brakes because of grass.

I said he tried, didn't say he succeeded. Two feet in is still worthwhile on grass.

Originally Posted by Jive

What is the reasoning behind both feet in?

Once you've lost control of a car beyond any reasonable chance of recovery, applying the brakes is generally the way to get your car stopped as quickly as possible (especially with ABS), plus it keeps it from rolling after it does stop. Putting the clutch down will prevent driveline damage caused by your wheels rolling backward while you've got a forward gear engaged, e.g. jumping your timing chain. In my second ever track weekend (first in my M3 and first in the rain), I tried DSC off after watching my instructor do it, and even though I thought I was driving well within the limits, it turned out MDM had been doing far too much work for me earlier. I spun it twice in one lap, and both times I didn't get the clutch in before the car started rolling backwards. Fortunately the speeds were low enough that both times, my car just stalled and threw an engine malfunction code that turned out to be nothing, but I probably got very lucky both times.

[Kong Sheng Han]

Originally Posted by nholmes

No thanks on that transition!

Looks like you hit that at 80mph Kong Sheng Han, but far lower on the hill than the driver in that first video posted. It looks like the left side is far smoother than the right side of that transition?

I was still warming up the motor. Skip ahead a little. I transition at 105-115 when warmed up.