Track,Street Wheels & Tires

[jewels]

Need some opinions

I am close to ordering a new set of wheels & tires for the trip to the track (200miles one way) as well as on track. I'm a driving instructor that has sold my race car (911) 3 years ago (ran Hoosiers) but don't have any experience behind the drivers seat with a Beemer. Yes I have been on the track probably longer than some of you have lived but advice is still needed
I use my M4 as a daily driver 3-4 days a week & will change back to stock wheels once home from track. Not planning on doing any suspension work and aside from changing the usual brake fluid & pads nothing more.
I'm looking at Forgestar deep dish F14 in 19X9.5 & 19X11.
Thinking of going 265 or 275 /30 in front & 295/30 rear...
RE11 or AD08R are a consideration...maybe even Mich PSS

Any input would be appreciated.

[Black Gold]

Personally wouldn't run a 1.5 inch stagger.

Also wouldn't go with 19 for the track. Run either 10" square or 9.5/10.5 forgelines or other custom forged wheel. Apex makes a 18x10 et25 wheel that can be run square

Run a 275 r888 or ad08r 18 tire or a staggered 265/285 or 275/295 on the 9.5/10.5 combo. Also, pss is not good on track for this car. It's too heavy and pss are too soft. A good driver will tear them up and they get greasy after 7-10 minutes of hard driving per session.

If you need help with offsets on the staggered combo, just ask. I went through tje same process on my bc forged 19s I just got (track and street) and got the offsets right.

Good luck, and kudos for tracking the m!

[///M Ryder]

Along with the (seems like BMW issued) Apex wheels, the TRMotorsport wheel from Tire Rack is a excellent choice. Checkout the 18x10 square wheels and a set of R-S3 Hankook's. I'm running a 265/285 stagger. As stated above, don't run a 19 or PSS on the track..........Phil

[consolidated]

The PSS will give up after a couple of laps under this car and they are only so-so grippy compared to your other options. The side blocks are showing some tearing on my set after a couple of short sessions. But for an everyday tire I'd happily drive thru a rainstorm in, they are quite amazing for light track work. Kenny covered this, bet we drive the same tracks.

RE11 is better and a good option, but the AD08R is what I would put on, because they hold up thru a session nicely and have decent grip. I just raced 15 hours on two sets, super easy to drive. Both are manageable in wet conditions, RE11 being a little better.

Usually I race on Toyo RRs and RA1, but would never put on R888 unless someone gave them to me. They have strange heat cycle tendencies (not great until worn down, then have a few magic cycles), then , go off quickly, have touchy break away characteristics and die long before the tread wears down. However, they are fast when in they are at their best.

None of these are Hoohoos, but in some ways much more fun.

[MaynardZed]

You can run 19" its just more expensive and you have less options. I do a 265/30/19, 295/30/19 stagger setup with R888. They are great IMO, but yes they do cycle out after about 20 heat cycles.

I have 19" x 9.5" EC-7 for the front and was waiting for proper 10.5 rear from Apex, but may have to settle on a 10" rear. Otherwise the tires do fit on the stock rims with a slight buldge.

The BMW should feel a lot more tame to drive than the Porsche. I will understeer more though.

[FTS]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

Personally wouldn't run a 1.5 inch stagger.

Kenny, I hear this often around the BMW drivers, particularly the desire to run square setups, but I do not understand the reasoning behind it, can you explain? TIA.

Originally Posted by MaynardZed

You can run 19" its just more expensive and you have less options. I do a 265/30/19, 295/30/19 stagger setup with R888. They are great IMO, but yes they do cycle out after about 20 heat cycles.

I have been using R888s for over 8 years now and collected a lot of data on them. If not shaved, they'll come to life around 8th HC, then change characteristics around 18 HC. However, performance actually does not drop until about 38-42 HC, and they won't cord until over 50 HC. Some people do not take the time to adjust to the changing characteristics of the tires and think they are cycled out. However, based on my data (albeit on 911s) the performance difference between the 8th HC and 42nd HC is no more than 1.5 sec a lap. For DE purposes, that is more than acceptable to me.

I prefer R888s mainly because the side walls are very stiff, given stock alignment I haven't found a better performing tire for the price point.

[evanescent03]

good info on the R888s. definitely sounds like you paid close attention to what they were doing. that's the kind of review i like to read

the BMW/track guys i do events with (mostly e36 m3s) do a square setup for the ability to rotate tires front-to-back and also for improved (perceived) turn-in (sorry no data to back it up). some of the tracks around here notoriously destroy a certain corner tire so it's nice to move 'em around more frequently to prevent cording one (saw a 458 cord his in a morning).

other guys may have different reasons but that's what i've heard so far. i ran both square and staggered on my mostly stock e46 m3 and honestly liked the staggered setup better but there were a lot of variables (different tires, different wheel brands, widths and heights).

Originally Posted by FTS

Kenny, I hear this often around the BMW drivers, particularly the desire to run square setups, but I do not understand the reasoning behind it, can you explain? TIA.


I have been using R888s for over 8 years now and collected a lot of data on them. If not shaved, they'll come to life around 8th HC, then change characteristics around 18 HC. However, performance actually does not drop until about 38-42 HC, and they won't cord until over 50 HC. Some people do not take the time to adjust to the changing characteristics of the tires and think they are cycled out. However, based on my data (albeit on 911s) the performance difference between the 8th HC and 42nd HC is no more than 1.5 sec a lap. For DE purposes, that is more than acceptable to me.

I prefer R888s mainly because the side walls are very stiff, given stock alignment I haven't found a better performing tire for the price point.

[FTS]

Originally Posted by evanescent03

the BMW/track guys i do events with (mostly e36 m3s) do a square setup for the ability to rotate tires front-to-back and also for improved (perceived) turn-in (sorry no data to back it up). some of the tracks around here notoriously destroy a certain corner tire so it's nice to move 'em around more frequently to prevent cording one (saw a 458 cord his in a morning).

other guys may have different reasons but that's what i've heard so far. i ran both square and staggered on my mostly stock e46 m3 and honestly liked the staggered setup better but there were a lot of variables (different tires, different wheel brands, widths and heights).

I really appreciate this info. I really do not know any setup tricks related to BMWs, the M4 a first for me. A square setup really does not compute in my mind for performance. The F8x is already tail happy under throttle, less weight in the back, so I expect the rear tires to heat up quite fast. Having more than 275 tires up front I think will hurt mid-turn and 275 in the rear will become greasy at a minimum within 10-15 mins of a normal session. I am of course guessing at this time, but keep wondering what I do not know about the setup of these cars.

I am glad it is mostly about the wear of tires and possibility of being able to rotate them. Thank you once again.

[lutfy]

Originally Posted by FTS

I really appreciate this info. I really do not know any setup tricks related to BMWs, the M4 a first for me. A square setup really does not compute in my mind for performance. The F8x is already tail happy under throttle, less weight in the back, so I expect the rear tires to heat up quite fast. Having more than 275 tires up front I think will hurt mid-turn and 275 in the rear will become greasy at a minimum within 10-15 mins of a normal session. I am of course guessing at this time, but keep wondering what I do not know about the setup of these cars.

I am glad it is mostly about the wear of tires and possibility of being able to rotate them. Thank you once again.

Fatih, most folks tend to run square for 'economics' especially the DE guys. Now people will chime in and say BW and Turner runs square too, yes but its because of the racing rules and the suspension setup/aero is deisgned to take advantage none the less. Our cars are street cars...

You want to stuff as much tire up front as you can. 275 will do it. Same as in the back. 295s at a minimum as I constantly overwhelm the 275 on the 18*10. Is it a bad setup? Not at all, folks have been using it all along. But would 295 provide more grip? Absolutely..And this was on an E9X chassis. Your car has LOTS more power down low.

275/35 is a tall tire and needs 295/35. No R Comps in those size hence folks run 265/30 and 295/30s. Rivals by BFG had the 275/35 295/35 in 18s last year...

If it were my car (or if I had to do it again on my E9X), I would get the widest front wheel that would fit. Then get an inch stagger at the back. But since offsets are not always favorable 9.5 and 10.5 in 18s will be manageable.

Good observations on the R888, Chris Mantz. also seems to love those tires.

Cheers,

Lutfy

[FTS]

Originally Posted by lutfy

You want to stuff as much tire up front as you can. 275 will do it. Same as in the back. 295s at a minimum as I constantly overwhelm the 275 on the 18*10. Is it a bad setup? Not at all, folks have been using it all along. But would 295 provide more grip? Absolutely..And this was on an E9X chassis. Your car has LOTS more power down low.

275/35 is a tall tire and needs 295/35. No R Comps in those size hence folks run 265/30 and 295/30s. Rivals by BFG had the 275/35 295/35 in 18s last year...

If it were my car (or if I had to do it again on my E9X), I would get the widest front wheel that would fit. Then get an inch stagger at the back. But since offsets are not always favorable 9.5 and 10.5 in 18s will be manageable.

Cheers,

Lutfy

This makes me feel so very comfortable, especially coming from you Lutfy, thank you.

I have CCBs, so I have to go with 19". I drive on the track tires to the track and generally don't swap out when I have events 2-3 weeks apart. I am thinking I'll either go R888s again with 265/30/19 and 295/30/19s on 9.5" and 11" wheels, or Conti ForceContacts in 265/35 and 305/30 tires. I need to do measurements on the wheels hub, calipers and send them to CCW to have them build some wheels.

Thank you very much Lutfy once again.

[lutfy]

Originally Posted by FTS

This makes me feel so very comfortable, especially coming from you Lutfy, thank you.

I have CCBs, so I have to go with 19". I drive on the track tires to the track and generally don't swap out when I have events 2-3 weeks apart. I am thinking I'll either go R888s again with 265/30/19 and 295/30/19s on 9.5" and 11" wheels, or Conti ForceContacts in 265/35 and 305/30 tires. I need to do measurements on the wheels hub, calipers and send them to CCW to have them build some wheels.

Thank you very much Lutfy once again.

This should also assist, as there are some good discussion:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...utfy+staggered

I believe the magic number is 1 inch stagger front to back. You can definately fit 10 inch wide wheel up front and with the right offset 10.5 (especially since you are going custom). Then 1 inch wide at the back. With stock suspension and limited camber curve you do want the widest tire up front, that should be your starting point.
BMW ran these in streetable CSL E46 and the E92 GTS (GTS = 9 inch front, 10 at the back with 265 front and 285 P Zero Corsas on 19s).

For tires, you want to be 20mm more at the back or max 30mm (265 and 295 or 275/305). Folks have been running that with much success including many 24 Hour European teams I have observed in Dubai. Hey if it can swallow 285s up front, then by all means do it :P

Username Richboth is the person I have reached out to in the past. He is very knowledgeable. Wouldnt hurt to ask him the right offset/setup especially since youre going custom and clean slate. I trust him and found him to be a legit source. Please do share his finding(s).

Good luck and welcome to club. Cant wait to see this new beast

Lutfy