Regular driving Review: Michelin Pilot Alpin PA4 in 245/45/18 for M3

JoeFromPA · 11-17-2014, 12:18 PM

Hi all,

I've put about 100 miles on the Pilot Alpin PA4's in 245/45/18 and while not fully broken in, nor any experience in snow, I wanted to post some thoughts on both the tire and tire size for this vehicle for daily driving and normal performance characteristics.

Background

I, like many others right now, agonized over my winter setup. I actually bought LM-32s mounted in 18x8 "Rial" P10's before returning them to tirerack. I then tried to buy BMW's recommended setup, only to find out I couldn't get a confirmed date of delivery (meanwhile, we started getting some snow here).

I wanted a square setup and my last experience was in a 235/45/17 SNOW tire (not a performance winter tire) on a much heavier e39 m5. It was very under-tired and it felt it all the time - I didn't want that again, which was pushing me to go wider.

Lastly, I need to drive all winter and while we don't get tons of snow consistently I need to be able to get on an unplowed road with 4" of snow, or a packed snow road, and not sweat it. Which was pushing me to keep a narrower setup.

Decision-time

Ultimately I chose Michelin PA4's in 245/45/18 because:

- I hate balancing issues with an unholy passion and Michelin has consistently been an outstanding balanced tire for me throughout it's entire lifespan.
- Seems to be an excellent winter tire for slush, set snow, packed snow, and up to 4" of fresh snow....which is all I'm ever going to deal with. I don't expect them to pull me out of enormous snow drifts and what not. We'll see about ice though.

Also, I realized I was being foolish with my concerns over tire width. The HEAVIER F30 335i gets a recommended 225/45/18 tire for winter usage. My lighter, more rigid chassis, lower, and lower COG m3 is going to perform admirably throughout the winter months on a 245/45/18 (this was my thinking)

Review

Really happy and pleasantly surprised in almost every respect.

First off, turn-in: I would honestly rate this as 95% as good as the Michelin PSS which blows me away. The car simply responds as expected with a balanced and immediate turn-in and takes a neutral stance immediately. I credit the chassis and a stiff winter sidewall.

Comfort/ride quality: This is a winter performance tire and has a taller front tire. I have the adaptive suspension. To me, it feels like each mode has adjusted one mode softer.

Sport now rides more like comfort, sport plus closer to sport, and comfort rides to me like an F30 335i on 18" wheels. This is by no means soft - the chassis is still ultra-rigid, the steering is in essence the same, it's just bump absorption has gotten a bit better.

Noise: Slightly quieter than the Michelin PSS in all respects. But only slightly

Dry Accelerative Traction: It's excellent....but DSC is more intrusive in gears 1-3 upon full throttle and when full power hits (usually around 3500 rpms). MDM mode is more of a necessity.

Let me rephrase this: Dry traction is far better than I expected out of a winter performance tire. In everyday driving, it's a barely noticeable difference from the Michelin PSS....especially the Michelin PSS in outdoor temps of 40-60 degrees, when it's not quite as good.

Dry lateral traction: There's a bit more wiggle, a bit more squidge (made up word), a bit more tire roll.....but other than that I'm going to say this thing drives exactly the same up to 7.5-8/10ths as the summer tires in similar temperatures. It's very confidence inspiring on public roads. At the end of the day though, these are winter tires so I'm not going to rate them above 7.5-8/10ths of the car's normal public road driving performance. These aren't tires you take to a track.

Braking: No notable difference in normal, non-ABS threshold braking. I think ABS kicks in earlier and i think stopping distances from a max-distance perspective are longer. Feels that way. But without testing, who knows. I expect these tires are substantially heavier, which is going to influence it.

Steering: I think I already covered this but I will say that I was most concerned about steering. Historically, I've had bad experiences going to a much different type of tire when it comes to steering. Here, there's really no difference besides what might be placebo effect. I'm comparing this against michelin PSS in 40-60 degree weather, so bear that in mind.

I'm quite surprised by the steering and imagine this has to do with an EPS system as well in addition to the F80s relatively numb tiller (compared to some cars I've owned). Regardless, I like the F80s steering and switching to these tires in this size seems to have made no impact on it.

...

I realize it's a little early to be reviewing a snow tire. However, most of my concerns were around day to day enjoyment being sacrificed for snow traction and so far I can say that it seems unfounded. For when the snow comes. I plan on having some extra weight in the trunk and we shall see what happens then

Hope this helps someone!

Kief · 11-17-2014, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

I, like many others right now, agonized over my winter setup

Lol...you should see my PM box today between myself and Miguel agonizing about this very topic!!! We must have been going back-n-forth how many times this morning Miguel?!?! What was the outcome again?

Thanks Joe for sharing your review thus far, definitely helpful.
More helpful for me however, would be to see some more pics of that BBS setup!!!
Thanks

JoeFromPA · 11-17-2014, 01:19 PM

heheh, it's pouring today so no new pics right now

I saw him last week and he was agonizing over it still. His choice is vastly different than mine, as he has much greater flexibility to stay home during snow days, have a short commute, or take a different vehicle.

At the end of the day, my money says he buys BMW's setup. He's a hardcore BMW-phile at heart and he'll sleep better knowing he bought BMW's setup. Of course, he does have a few non-BMW parts on his car already....so maybe I'm wrong...

Kief · 11-17-2014, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

heheh, it's pouring today so no new pics right now

I saw him last week and he was agonizing over it still. His choice is vastly different than mine, as he has much greater flexibility to stay home during snow days, have a short commute, or take a different vehicle.

At the end of the day, my money says he buys BMW's setup. He's a hardcore BMW-phile at heart and he'll sleep better knowing he bought BMW's setup. Of course, he does have a few non-BMW parts on his car already....so maybe I'm wrong...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suave

I like this

Oh come on..pics in the rain is basically what your car is going to see here in PA anyway!

Miguel and I have very similar situations which makes it difficult for us to decide whether to spend the $$$ and get a winter setup. We left our conversation as both of us holding off this winter and if its too much of an inconvenience, getting a setup next season. But I'm still torn...

M4LAKA · 12-15-2014, 06:00 PM

I just installed these tires, 255/35/19 front and 285/35/19 rear on my m4s stock wheels. In little snow like we had last week they were perfect.
Under hard acceleration they actually really impressed me.

ft1330 · 11-16-2015, 12:09 PM

Bought this tire for my F30... So far so good, maybe a little soft to my taste compared to the summer Conti run flats. Traction not as good. But I'm still breaking them in. Have yet to try in snow.

What is your sweet spot for inflation on 245/45/18 ?

JoeFromPA · 11-16-2015, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ft1330

Bought this tire for my F30... So far so good, maybe a little soft to my taste compared to the summer Conti run flats. Traction not as good. But I'm still breaking them in. Have yet to try in snow.

What is your sweet spot for inflation on 245/45/18 ?

Don't form an impression of the tire above 40-45 degrees fahrenheit - they, like any winter tire, will be soft and squishy the warmer the temps - and in today's 60s, they will be ridiculously soft. They literally will not drive how they were designed until temps get to freezing - much like a summer tire won't drive how it was designed as temps near freezing.

I'm pretty sure I had them at ~36 PSI give or take but I can't remember honestly.

MaX PL · 11-16-2015, 04:42 PM

OP, you really think this setup is capable for running in 4" of unpacked snow?

ft1330 · 11-17-2015, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

Don't form an impression of the tire above 40-45 degrees fahrenheit - they, like any winter tire, will be soft and squishy the warmer the temps - and in today's 60s, they will be ridiculously soft. They literally will not drive how they were designed until temps get to freezing - much like a summer tire won't drive how it was designed as temps near freezing.

I'm pretty sure I had them at ~36 PSI give or take but I can't remember honestly.

Good point. And it's been so warm in SE PA for a November

JoeFromPA · 11-17-2015, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaX PL

OP, you really think this setup is capable for running in 4" of unpacked snow?

Capable, yes. But I'll be frank: It won't be enjoyable or desirable to do so for long stretches.

Example 1: I turn down a flat backroad with 4" of unpacked snow. Using momentum and decent tire grip, I make it through just fine.

Example 2: I know I need to traverse a long, windy, back road with some uphills on 4" of unpacked snow. I would not be sure I would make it without issue.

nhs15 · 11-17-2015, 12:45 PM

OP why did you return the LM-32s? Did you try them and not like them? I was looking at the 255/40s. Look like PA2s are available in that size as well. I'm in MD and have similar winter driving requirements.

JoeFromPA · 11-17-2015, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nhs15

OP why did you return the LM-32s? Did you try them and not like them? I was looking at the 255/40s. Look like PA2s are available in that size as well. I'm in MD and have similar winter driving requirements.

I prefer Michelin as a brand due to my experience with very even wear and excellent balance -no other reason

ElSenor · 11-17-2015, 02:11 PM

What wheels are these mounted on? 513M or 640M?

evanescent03 · 11-17-2015, 07:00 PM

thanks for the feedback!

JoeFromPA · 11-18-2015, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElSenor

What wheels are these mounted on? 513M or 640M?

BBS wheels in 18x8 sizing, widely available.

MaX PL · 11-18-2015, 10:32 PM

Hey Joe,

Are the PA4s directional or not? I know theyre asymmetric and have an "outside" marking on the tire, but I think I've installed mine on the wrong sides.

I don't understand why there is no arrow for rotation if they are directional.

ElSenor · 11-19-2015, 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

BBS wheels in 18x8 sizing, widely available.

Sorry, I saw a mention of photos, but I cant get them to load.

JoeFromPA · 11-19-2015, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaX PL

Hey Joe,

Are the PA4s directional or not? I know theyre asymmetric and have an "outside" marking on the tire, but I think I've installed mine on the wrong sides.

I don't understand why there is no arrow for rotation if they are directional.

As far as I know, no, they are not directional and you can cross rotate them.

JoeFromPA · 11-19-2015, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElSenor

Sorry, I saw a mention of photos, but I cant get them to load.

Look here: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...php?p=16957818

post 179 from me has lots of pics

MaX PL · 11-19-2015, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

As far as I know, no, they are not directional and you can cross rotate them.

Yeh thats what Tire Rack just told me but look at these photos:

If you cant see the photos try this link:

https://photos.google.com/album/AF1Q...9B_HAbgnHSoCNM

Why do they curve one way on one side and the other way on the other.
The front left curves the same same as the rear right I think.

None of this matters?

JoeFromPA · 11-19-2015, 02:22 PM

There are non-directional tires like that - since there is an "outside" mark you'd have to have side-specific tires to make them directional. They are non-directional.

MaX PL · 11-20-2015, 08:09 PM

So after spending a day on the PA4 for the first time, I will only comment on the road noise and comfort.

The tire is noticeably noisier than the PSS and rides a bit bumpier. You can definitely feel the difference versus the smooth ride of the PSS.
I can get used to both items and the noise isn't very significant, but the ride comfort definitely isn't as great as the PSS.

I didn't do any real acceleration or braking to comment on those.

So as a first impression, its obviously not a PSS. I sort of wonder what a AS3 would feel like, but I doubt I'll ever make that purchase.

11-17-2014, 12:18 PM	#1
JoeFromPA Colonel 1796 Rep 2,997 Posts Drives: '15 AW M3 6MT Stripper Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: SE PA iTrader: (0)	Regular driving Review: Michelin Pilot Alpin PA4 in 245/45/18 for M3 Hi all, I've put about 100 miles on the Pilot Alpin PA4's in 245/45/18 and while not fully broken in, nor any experience in snow, I wanted to post some thoughts on both the tire and tire size for this vehicle for daily driving and normal performance characteristics. Background I, like many others right now, agonized over my winter setup. I actually bought LM-32s mounted in 18x8 "Rial" P10's before returning them to tirerack. I then tried to buy BMW's recommended setup, only to find out I couldn't get a confirmed date of delivery (meanwhile, we started getting some snow here). I wanted a square setup and my last experience was in a 235/45/17 SNOW tire (not a performance winter tire) on a much heavier e39 m5. It was very under-tired and it felt it all the time - I didn't want that again, which was pushing me to go wider. Lastly, I need to drive all winter and while we don't get tons of snow consistently I need to be able to get on an unplowed road with 4" of snow, or a packed snow road, and not sweat it. Which was pushing me to keep a narrower setup. Decision-time Ultimately I chose Michelin PA4's in 245/45/18 because: - I hate balancing issues with an unholy passion and Michelin has consistently been an outstanding balanced tire for me throughout it's entire lifespan. - Seems to be an excellent winter tire for slush, set snow, packed snow, and up to 4" of fresh snow....which is all I'm ever going to deal with. I don't expect them to pull me out of enormous snow drifts and what not. We'll see about ice though. Also, I realized I was being foolish with my concerns over tire width. The HEAVIER F30 335i gets a recommended 225/45/18 tire for winter usage. My lighter, more rigid chassis, lower, and lower COG m3 is going to perform admirably throughout the winter months on a 245/45/18 (this was my thinking) Review Really happy and pleasantly surprised in almost every respect. First off, turn-in: I would honestly rate this as 95% as good as the Michelin PSS which blows me away. The car simply responds as expected with a balanced and immediate turn-in and takes a neutral stance immediately. I credit the chassis and a stiff winter sidewall. Comfort/ride quality: This is a winter performance tire and has a taller front tire. I have the adaptive suspension. To me, it feels like each mode has adjusted one mode softer. Sport now rides more like comfort, sport plus closer to sport, and comfort rides to me like an F30 335i on 18" wheels. This is by no means soft - the chassis is still ultra-rigid, the steering is in essence the same, it's just bump absorption has gotten a bit better. Noise: Slightly quieter than the Michelin PSS in all respects. But only slightly Dry Accelerative Traction: It's excellent....but DSC is more intrusive in gears 1-3 upon full throttle and when full power hits (usually around 3500 rpms). MDM mode is more of a necessity. Let me rephrase this: Dry traction is far better than I expected out of a winter performance tire. In everyday driving, it's a barely noticeable difference from the Michelin PSS....especially the Michelin PSS in outdoor temps of 40-60 degrees, when it's not quite as good. Dry lateral traction: There's a bit more wiggle, a bit more squidge (made up word), a bit more tire roll.....but other than that I'm going to say this thing drives exactly the same up to 7.5-8/10ths as the summer tires in similar temperatures. It's very confidence inspiring on public roads. At the end of the day though, these are winter tires so I'm not going to rate them above 7.5-8/10ths of the car's normal public road driving performance. These aren't tires you take to a track. Braking: No notable difference in normal, non-ABS threshold braking. I think ABS kicks in earlier and i think stopping distances from a max-distance perspective are longer. Feels that way. But without testing, who knows. I expect these tires are substantially heavier, which is going to influence it. Steering: I think I already covered this but I will say that I was most concerned about steering. Historically, I've had bad experiences going to a much different type of tire when it comes to steering. Here, there's really no difference besides what might be placebo effect. I'm comparing this against michelin PSS in 40-60 degree weather, so bear that in mind. I'm quite surprised by the steering and imagine this has to do with an EPS system as well in addition to the F80s relatively numb tiller (compared to some cars I've owned). Regardless, I like the F80s steering and switching to these tires in this size seems to have made no impact on it. ... I realize it's a little early to be reviewing a snow tire. However, most of my concerns were around day to day enjoyment being sacrificed for snow traction and so far I can say that it seems unfounded. For when the snow comes. I plan on having some extra weight in the trunk and we shall see what happens then Hope this helps someone! __________________ AW/Carbonstructure 6MT 2015 M3 picked up 8/22/2014. Stripper except for adaptive suspension. Weighed at 3,450 pounds with 1/4 fuel. 70,000 miles as of February 2020.
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11-17-2014, 01:19 PM	#3
JoeFromPA Colonel 1796 Rep 2,997 Posts Drives: '15 AW M3 6MT Stripper Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: SE PA iTrader: (0)	heheh, it's pouring today so no new pics right now I saw him last week and he was agonizing over it still. His choice is vastly different than mine, as he has much greater flexibility to stay home during snow days, have a short commute, or take a different vehicle. At the end of the day, my money says he buys BMW's setup. He's a hardcore BMW-phile at heart and he'll sleep better knowing he bought BMW's setup. Of course, he does have a few non-BMW parts on his car already....so maybe I'm wrong...
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12-15-2014, 06:00 PM	#5
M4LAKA Lieutenant 114 Rep 424 Posts Drives: 2022 M5 Comp Join Date: May 2014 Location: Toronto iTrader: (0)	I just installed these tires, 255/35/19 front and 285/35/19 rear on my m4s stock wheels. In little snow like we had last week they were perfect. Under hard acceleration they actually really impressed me.
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11-16-2015, 12:09 PM	#6
ft1330 Major 231 Rep 1,267 Posts Drives: 2014 335i Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: SE PA iTrader: (0)	Bought this tire for my F30... So far so good, maybe a little soft to my taste compared to the summer Conti run flats. Traction not as good. But I'm still breaking them in. Have yet to try in snow. What is your sweet spot for inflation on 245/45/18 ? Last edited by ft1330; 11-16-2015 at 12:22 PM..
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11-16-2015, 04:42 PM	#8
MaX PL Major 533 Rep 1,415 Posts Drives: M3 Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: NY iTrader: (0)	OP, you really think this setup is capable for running in 4" of unpacked snow?
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11-17-2015, 12:45 PM	#11
nhs15 Enlisted Member 7 Rep 32 Posts Drives: '16 M3 Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Lutherville, MD iTrader: (0)	OP why did you return the LM-32s? Did you try them and not like them? I was looking at the 255/40s. Look like PA2s are available in that size as well. I'm in MD and have similar winter driving requirements.
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11-17-2015, 02:11 PM	#13
ElSenor Second Lieutenant 135 Rep 238 Posts Drives: 16' AW/SO M3 Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Stuttgart, Germany iTrader: (0)	What wheels are these mounted on? 513M or 640M?
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11-17-2015, 07:00 PM	#14
evanescent03 Lieutenant Colonel 1032 Rep 1,997 Posts Drives: '24 M3 CS; '22 GT4 Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: USA iTrader: (2)	thanks for the feedback! __________________ Gone but not forgotten: '09 STi // '08 335i // '02 M3 // '11 335i // '15 M3 // '16 M3 // '16 Camaro SS // '16 Audi S3 // '18 Boxster 718S // '17 Camaro SS 1LE // '16 M6 GC CP
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11-18-2015, 10:32 PM	#16
MaX PL Major 533 Rep 1,415 Posts Drives: M3 Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: NY iTrader: (0)	Hey Joe, Are the PA4s directional or not? I know theyre asymmetric and have an "outside" marking on the tire, but I think I've installed mine on the wrong sides. I don't understand why there is no arrow for rotation if they are directional.
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11-19-2015, 02:22 PM	#21
JoeFromPA Colonel 1796 Rep 2,997 Posts Drives: '15 AW M3 6MT Stripper Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: SE PA iTrader: (0)	There are non-directional tires like that - since there is an "outside" mark you'd have to have side-specific tires to make them directional. They are non-directional.
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11-20-2015, 08:09 PM	#22
MaX PL Major 533 Rep 1,415 Posts Drives: M3 Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: NY iTrader: (0)	So after spending a day on the PA4 for the first time, I will only comment on the road noise and comfort. The tire is noticeably noisier than the PSS and rides a bit bumpier. You can definitely feel the difference versus the smooth ride of the PSS. I can get used to both items and the noise isn't very significant, but the ride comfort definitely isn't as great as the PSS. I didn't do any real acceleration or braking to comment on those. So as a first impression, its obviously not a PSS. I sort of wonder what a AS3 would feel like, but I doubt I'll ever make that purchase.
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