The cost of replacing M-DCT clutches is...

Nr!qUe · 01-30-2010, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by galahad05

Heh, define "a lot."

Okay, then wouldn't you want to keep "a few" customers?

JoeyBananaz18 · 01-30-2010, 06:47 PM

a manual BMW is the same as a rear engined 911. some things will never change for a reason.

Oulixes · 01-30-2010, 08:45 PM

Transmissions are a hot topic for car enthusiasts, but are of less interest to those who sell cars. Over the years, BMW made much money out of something they called the "sports sedan," which meant a car sitting on a fence between luxury and sport. The sitting on the fence tradition is continuing in the 3-series where, right now, luxury is winning. There is no doubt that MT sales are bringing less and less money to the company, especially in North America. It is likely that if it were not for European sales, there would be as many MTs offered on the 3-series BMWs as they are on the BMW SAV trucks. Without doubt, a 3-series BMW is a nice car regardless of its transmission, even though some of the ATs are made by GM.

captainaudio · 01-30-2010, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nr!qUe

Okay, then wouldn't you want to keep "a few" customers?

From a financial standpoint it is not worth keeping customers if the cost of accomodating them is less than the revenue they bring in. This was apparently the case with Ferrari.

CA

JoosyJoos · 01-30-2010, 11:48 PM

Manuals will go the way of the dinosaur eventually. Just a lot better technology coming out... and the fact that very few people learn how to drive manuals. Its just a numbers game...

That being said I'm 6MT all the way.

Verbiage · 01-31-2010, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oulixes

Transmissions are a hot topic for car enthusiasts, but are of less interest to those who sell cars. Over the years, BMW made much money out of something they called the "sports sedan," which meant a car sitting on a fence between luxury and sport. The sitting on the fence tradition is continuing in the 3-series where, right now, luxury is winning. There is no doubt that MT sales are bringing less and less money to the company, especially in North America. It is likely that if it were not for European sales, there would be as many MTs offered on the 3-series BMWs as they are on the BMW SAV trucks. Without doubt, a 3-series BMW is a nice car regardless of its transmission, even though some of the ATs are made by GM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

From a financial standpoint it is not worth keeping customers if the cost of accomodating them is less than the revenue they bring in. This was apparently the case with Ferrari.

CA

to that.

Bcube · 01-31-2010, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

From a financial standpoint it is not worth keeping customers if the cost of accomodating them is less than the revenue they bring in. This was apparently the case with Ferrari.

CA

It may be even simpler than that. Ferrari is not in the business to make slow cars.

kd6lor · 01-31-2010, 02:32 AM

Meanwhile after all the bullshit, I didn't see a single poster answer the OP's question. Sorry, I don't know either, but I can assure you it will be quite high given that the fuel pump runs $1700.

Paul

chrisnetcom · 01-31-2010, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tuned2ride

....3296$+ according to Car&Driver in their long term M3! They observed some slippage at 40000 miles.

Is it the very same transmission in the Z4 / 335is? With launch-control and everything?

That car was beat on much harder than it would have been in the real world. Also, the replacement would have been covered under the maintenance for them at that mileage. I doubt any real-world owner will see a clutch replacement for some time, and definitely nowhere near that mileage.

Yes, same transmission, but I'm not sure of those models have the launch control from the M3.

cstavaru · 01-31-2010, 06:50 AM

This forum is visited mostly by USA customers, hence the automatic is the transmission of choice. And many of them chose the AT because they or their wives could not drive a manual.

BMW, Porsche, Aston Martin and some other top-notch car makers offer manual transmissions in their cars and I don't know if transmission cost is an issue if you buy a $300.000 Aston.

That said, I really like the DCT transmission but ONLY for the better performance. The conventional automatic gearbox with torque converter is inferior to the MT. The torque converter in the 335i locks up at over 2500RPM, so you miss low-end torque and fun.

Lately, after proper tunes for the MT cars have arrived like GIAC S2 and (maybe) Procede v4, a tuned 335i does 11.8 with manual transmissions.

So for now, unless you are giving me a good DCT, I am fine with the manual...

GMWNashville · 01-31-2010, 08:43 AM

ive driven every trans that bmw offers..and im sure some of you are manual nuts...but the dct is still to me the best trans bmw offers..and ive never owned an automatic anything in my life..

John 070 · 01-31-2010, 08:55 AM

My state senator made a statement that he will always be driving with one hand on the wheel, and one hand doing something else, whether it's texting, cell phone (what a stupid comment since the law is hands-free), or anything else.

DCT is perfect for people who think like he does, all the performance and then some, and none of the activities associated with a 6MAN.

vgame64 · 01-31-2010, 09:45 AM

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/artic...umentid=656470

Outlaw 06 · 01-31-2010, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JakeN5

MT is so .... last century. DCT and auto are the way of the future

It's true. Slushboxes make it possible for the nation's growing number of unskilled drivers to get from point A to point B with minimal difficulty...

captainaudio · 01-31-2010, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJDiCandido

It's true. Slushboxes make it possible for the nation's growing number of unskilled drivers to get from point A to point B with minimal difficulty...

There is a big difference between knowing how to drive a manual transmission ans knowing how to drive one well. Getting from one gear to another with a manual transmision does not require very much skill.

From what I have seen at track days and at high performance driving schools there are a lot of unskilled dirvers getting from point A to point B in cars with manual transmissions.

CA

mark1996 · 01-31-2010, 01:12 PM

Come on you guys. Driving a recent model BMW MT car is child's play. The clutch is light and smooth and it has the automatic "hill holder" function.

The wave of the future may be having our cars on electro-magnetic "tracks" so that we no longer have to steer. The fact is that manual transmission cars are more fun. Those who say that I bought a BMW or a Porsche with an automatic or a DCT because they are faster or more "advanced" are really saying that they do not know how to drive a MT or that their spouses would not let them buy a MT.

I also do not buy the explanation: "Ohhhhhh, if I am in heavy traffic, my clutch leg gets tired." Give me a break.

Flame on.

tuned2ride · 01-31-2010, 01:17 PM

Quote:

I also do not buy the explanation: "Ohhhhhh, if I am in heavy traffic, my clutch leg gets tired." Give me a break.

It is the best one; you have obviously no clue what you are talking about.

Pressing/depressing 2-300x the clutch in regular traffic jams is not fun at all. You go forward 30-40 feet. STOP a few seconds. You go forward 30-40 feet. STOP a few seconds. Repeat zillions of times. It happens frequently where I live.

mark1996 · 01-31-2010, 01:35 PM

Uh huh... "Ohhhhhhhh... my clutch leg is so tired" is a lame excuse. I drive in heavy traffic all the time. Try it with a manual, it will give you some more practice.

captainaudio · 01-31-2010, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark1996

Come on you guys. Driving a recent model BMW MT car is child's play. The clutch is light and smooth and it has the automatic "hill holder" function.

The wave of the future may be having our cars on electro-magnetic "tracks" so that we no longer have to steer. The fact is that manual transmission cars are more fun. Those who say that I bought a BMW or a Porsche with an automatic or a DCT because they are faster or more "advanced" are really saying that they do not know how to drive a MT or that their spouses would not let them buy a MT.

I also do not buy the explanation: "Ohhhhhh, if I am in heavy traffic, my clutch leg gets tired." Give me a break.

Flame on.

Flame #1

A significant portion of the drivers of MTs have no idea how to drive them properly and generally their insistance on the superiority of MTs is directly proportional to their lack of skill in driving one. These tend tp be the people who talk about "engine breaking". 'coasting", etc.

If you think you can drive an MT try pulling off a double clutch heel and toe two gear downshift while threshold braking in a car with a racing transmission with straight gears and no synchros.

"The only reason they bought an AT is because they can't drive an MT" is particularly silly since a good portion of DCT owners previously owned MTs. Also many people own several cars, some with ATs some with MTs.

My daily drive is a Steptronic and it spends 99% of its time in Automatic mode. It is the first AT car I ever owned and I do not regret the decision.

I have an SCCA competition license and a track membership and that had a big influence on my decision to get an AT for the street. I get to drive a variety of cars on the track and am perfectly content with an AT as my daily driver.
CA

mark1996 · 01-31-2010, 02:36 PM

Hey Captain Audio:

Good response to my post. I am obviously not as skilled as you and I have never been on a track. I did learn a long time ago about double clutching but that was because the old BMW 2002's I used to drive always seemed to have a bad second synchro. It had nothing to do with trying to go faster.

I also realize that the racing cars of today do not have MT's anymore. The truth is that it is a matter of choice and preference. I just happen to like my MT because it gives me more to do when I drive.

My post was more or less a way of livening up the discussion a little bit.

mark1996 · 01-31-2010, 02:39 PM

One more thing: All you auto transmission guys kill us when we try to find MT cars on the dealer lots!!!! The dealers are always telling me: we don't stock 'em because people don't buy 'em.

742 · 01-31-2010, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by captainaudio

There is a big difference between knowing how to drive a manual transmission ans knowing how to drive one well. Getting from one gear to another with a manual transmision does not require very much skill.

From what I have seen at track days and at high performance driving schools there are a lot of unskilled dirvers getting from point A to point B in cars with manual transmissions.

CA

That is true of pretty much every task and skill in life. None of us have high level skills in everything we do. And there is nothing wrong with the MT owner who simply enjoys driving but does not push the car to edge.

And this idea that you have to be driving at the edge with Schumacher like skills to be "good" is a strange automotive thing. There is a satisfaction in doing something well even when it is being done in a routine manner, and our roads would be a lot safer if the automotive world approached driving with that mind set.

As for the MT driver just moving the car from A to B, more power to them. At least we know that they are not talking on their cell phone will eating the Big Mac that they got at the drive thru window.

01-30-2010, 06:47 PM	#24
JoeyBananaz18 Brigadier General 398 Rep 4,084 Posts Drives: metrocard Join Date: May 2009 Location: Whitestone, NY iTrader: (3)	a manual BMW is the same as a rear engined 911. some things will never change for a reason. __________________ 7/18/09- I pick up my baby- 2009 E92 335i Xdrive, Space Gray over Coral Red. Premium Pkg, Cold Weather Pkg, M-Sport Pkg, 193Ms, Gloss Black grills, Custom Gloss Black Mirrors, Performance shift and E-brake boot, M3 spoiler, Euro fog switch, gloss black interior tim, Coco-Mats (red/black), H&R coilovers, 19'' Alufelgen SF-71s......
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01-30-2010, 08:45 PM	#25
Oulixes Lieutenant Colonel 22 Rep 1,938 Posts Drives: 330xi, 335i Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Terra Borealis iTrader: (0)	Transmissions are a hot topic for car enthusiasts, but are of less interest to those who sell cars. Over the years, BMW made much money out of something they called the "sports sedan," which meant a car sitting on a fence between luxury and sport. The sitting on the fence tradition is continuing in the 3-series where, right now, luxury is winning. There is no doubt that MT sales are bringing less and less money to the company, especially in North America. It is likely that if it were not for European sales, there would be as many MTs offered on the 3-series BMWs as they are on the BMW SAV trucks. Without doubt, a 3-series BMW is a nice car regardless of its transmission, even though some of the ATs are made by GM.
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01-30-2010, 11:48 PM	#27
JoosyJoos Major 115 Rep 1,347 Posts Drives: 2011 335d Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Atlanta, GA iTrader: (1) Garage List 2008 BMW 335i [0.00]	Manuals will go the way of the dinosaur eventually. Just a lot better technology coming out... and the fact that very few people learn how to drive manuals. Its just a numbers game... That being said I'm 6MT all the way. __________________ 1997 M3 Coupe - BMWCCA I-Prepared #22 2006 M Roadster - 23,000 miles and slowly counting
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01-31-2010, 02:32 AM	#30
kd6lor Private First Class 9 Rep 133 Posts Drives: 08 335 Coupe Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Orange County, California iTrader: (0)	Meanwhile after all the bullshit, I didn't see a single poster answer the OP's question. Sorry, I don't know either, but I can assure you it will be quite high given that the fuel pump runs $1700. Paul
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01-31-2010, 06:50 AM	#32
cstavaru Brigadier General 314 Rep 3,262 Posts Drives: 2009 335i M Sport Sedan 6MT Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Bucharest, Romania iTrader: (0)	This forum is visited mostly by USA customers, hence the automatic is the transmission of choice. And many of them chose the AT because they or their wives could not drive a manual. BMW, Porsche, Aston Martin and some other top-notch car makers offer manual transmissions in their cars and I don't know if transmission cost is an issue if you buy a $300.000 Aston. That said, I really like the DCT transmission but ONLY for the better performance. The conventional automatic gearbox with torque converter is inferior to the MT. The torque converter in the 335i locks up at over 2500RPM, so you miss low-end torque and fun. Lately, after proper tunes for the MT cars have arrived like GIAC S2 and (maybe) Procede v4, a tuned 335i does 11.8 with manual transmissions. So for now, unless you are giving me a good DCT, I am fine with the manual... __________________ Mods(click): Cobb + RB Turbos \| Aquamist HFS-4 Meth \| Drexler LSD \| Bilstein B12 Pro-Kit \| Custom K&N Apollo Intake \| Wagner Intercooler \| Macht Schnell Downpipes \| BMW Performance Power Kit \| BMW Performance Exhaust \| BMW Performance Short Shifter \| M3 Subframe Bushings \|
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01-31-2010, 08:43 AM	#33
GMWNashville Colonel 172 Rep 2,373 Posts Drives: 19 G05, 16 F80, 10 E70x5D Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Nashville, TN iTrader: (2)	ive driven every trans that bmw offers..and im sure some of you are manual nuts...but the dct is still to me the best trans bmw offers..and ive never owned an automatic anything in my life..
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01-31-2010, 08:55 AM	#34
John 070 Lieutenant General 1707 Rep 14,829 Posts Drives: 335i cpe Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: ZSP/ZPP/ZCW iTrader: (0)	My state senator made a statement that he will always be driving with one hand on the wheel, and one hand doing something else, whether it's texting, cell phone (what a stupid comment since the law is hands-free), or anything else. DCT is perfect for people who think like he does, all the performance and then some, and none of the activities associated with a 6MAN.
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01-31-2010, 09:45 AM	#35
vgame64 Colonel 141 Rep 2,479 Posts Drives: BMW 335i Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: USA iTrader: (9)	http://editorial.autos.msn.com/artic...umentid=656470 __________________ Car:2008 E90 335i \| BSM \| ZPP \| ZSP \| 6AT Paddles \| Black Leather \| Dark Burl Walnut \| Heated Seats Mods: (All OEM) \| BMW Performance CF Splitters \| BMW Blackline Taillights \| BMW Rear Deck Spoiler \| BMW Performance Auto Shift Knob and Alcantara Boot \| BMW Black Dakota Leather Split Folding Armrest \| BMW Euro Fog Light Switch \| BMW Style 193M Wheels \| BMW Performance Gloss Black Kidney Grills \| BMW Front Clear Bra \| BMW Performance Steering Wheel (non-elec)
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01-31-2010, 01:12 PM	#38
mark1996 Private First Class 13 Rep 110 Posts Drives: 2015 320i Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Seattle iTrader: (1)	Come on you guys. Driving a recent model BMW MT car is child's play. The clutch is light and smooth and it has the automatic "hill holder" function. The wave of the future may be having our cars on electro-magnetic "tracks" so that we no longer have to steer. The fact is that manual transmission cars are more fun. Those who say that I bought a BMW or a Porsche with an automatic or a DCT because they are faster or more "advanced" are really saying that they do not know how to drive a MT or that their spouses would not let them buy a MT. I also do not buy the explanation: "Ohhhhhh, if I am in heavy traffic, my clutch leg gets tired." Give me a break. Flame on.
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01-31-2010, 01:35 PM	#40
mark1996 Private First Class 13 Rep 110 Posts Drives: 2015 320i Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Seattle iTrader: (1)	Uh huh... "Ohhhhhhhh... my clutch leg is so tired" is a lame excuse. I drive in heavy traffic all the time. Try it with a manual, it will give you some more practice.
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01-31-2010, 02:36 PM	#42
mark1996 Private First Class 13 Rep 110 Posts Drives: 2015 320i Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Seattle iTrader: (1)	Hey Captain Audio: Good response to my post. I am obviously not as skilled as you and I have never been on a track. I did learn a long time ago about double clutching but that was because the old BMW 2002's I used to drive always seemed to have a bad second synchro. It had nothing to do with trying to go faster. I also realize that the racing cars of today do not have MT's anymore. The truth is that it is a matter of choice and preference. I just happen to like my MT because it gives me more to do when I drive. My post was more or less a way of livening up the discussion a little bit.
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01-31-2010, 02:39 PM	#43
mark1996 Private First Class 13 Rep 110 Posts Drives: 2015 320i Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Seattle iTrader: (1)	One more thing: All you auto transmission guys kill us when we try to find MT cars on the dealer lots!!!! The dealers are always telling me: we don't stock 'em because people don't buy 'em.
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