[fenixsaint]

I've recently started attending hpd events and I think I'm hooked. I've obviously got a lot to improve on as far as driving skills go but I'd still like to do a few mods to improve the car. It's an 09 e92 335i m-sport w/ 35000 miles. It's also my DD so I'd like to keep it fairly drivable on local rough roads.

Currently installed:
Koni FSD / stock springs
Michelin PSS on Stock 19"
Performance exhaust
Cobb Stage 1 tune
ATE 200 brake fluid
Clutch Delay valve removed

What should I do first? I'd like to focus more on handling than power. I noticed on the track that the car has a lot of body roll and those tires are really squealing on the high speed corners. I haven't had any oil temp limp mode issues yet. I'm planning on new brake pads (possibly rotors), a Cobb e-tune, and I'm not sure what else. I'd like to stay around $2000 (excluding labor) for this year.

What will give me the biggest bang for my buck? 17x9 square setup? Ohlins coilover? Oil cooler? LSD? M3 Bushings? M3 Control arms? Just guessing I'd say the the coilovers + corner balancing but I was hoping for some veteran input. Sorry I know this stuff gets asked all the time.

Also bonus pic:

View post on imgur.com

[nis270r]

I would say go for a better suspension set-up, aftermarket shocks with stock springs is not a good combo for track, at least get a set of H&R/Eibach spring. As for coilovers, I see a lot of deals going on with many forum vendors on KW and H&R, I wouldn't get the performance exhaust as that's the least bang for your buck lol. Definitely M3 goodies as it's been widely published those components make a huge difference on handling. 18" lightweight rims would be more suitable. (Apex/Enkei/Advan/BBS)

In terms of power, get a downpipe or intercooler, a tune, then upgrade the brakes next! have fun dude!

[StealYourFace]

Definitely M3 front end/alignment. Very cost effective upgrade/maintenance. I run -1.5 front, -1.7 rear camber, all other sepcs factory. it is a nice compromise (even if I get out there for 5 schools a year, the other 355 days it is my daily driver). As much as I would love coilovers, I do not want the car any lower in the front, for snow driving clearance.

Track pads for the front, the 335i brakes at 13.7" are pretty beefy.

[Mavus]

Originally Posted by fenixsaint

I've recently started attending hpd events and I think I'm hooked. I've obviously got a lot to improve on as far as driving skills go but I'd still like to do a few mods to improve the car. It's an 09 e92 335i m-sport w/ 35000 miles. It's also my DD so I'd like to keep it fairly drivable on local rough roads.

Currently installed:
Koni FSD / stock springs
Michelin PSS on Stock 19"
Performance exhaust
Cobb Stage 1 tune
ATE 200 brake fluid
Clutch Delay valve removed

What should I do first? I'd like to focus more on handling than power. I noticed on the track that the car has a lot of body roll and those tires are really squealing on the high speed corners. I haven't had any oil temp limp mode issues yet. I'm planning on new brake pads (possibly rotors), a Cobb e-tune, and I'm not sure what else. I'd like to stay around $2000 (excluding labor) for this year.

What will give me the biggest bang for my buck? 17x9 square setup? Ohlins coilover? Oil cooler? LSD? M3 Bushings? M3 Control arms? Just guessing I'd say the the coilovers + corner balancing but I was hoping for some veteran input. Sorry I know this stuff gets asked all the time.

Also bonus pic:

View post on imgur.com

I did a few mods and will share my experience as I was in a similar situation.

Based on your set-up and limited driving experience I would not modify suspension this year. Instead, I would get ARC-8 17" or 18" wheels and better tires. Upgrading brake pads is also good. Those are the best value track mods in my opinion.

Another very nice mode is LSD. Once you turn off DTC it is a different beast. The car hardly complains if you control it properly. The combo of LSD and light wheels are probably the best mods for track.

Suspension wise - suggest to get to know the car a bit better and do a thorough research. In the same time you can start buying M3 bits and subframe bushings (if you don't have them) and then install suspension and bits in the same time for the next season. That way you don't have to rush to make a quick decision, unless you already know what you want, and you would also have the car aligned once. You should really understand the suspension set-up on this car before purchasing the new one.

GL

[The HACK]

Are you doing events with a driving coach or instructor in car? Because based on your tire description and the fact that you haven't gone into limp mode, I would think there's something wrong with the driving, not the car.

Tire "squealing" is normal unless you're running R-Comps. It's just a way for street tires to tell you that they're starting to approach the limit of adhesion. Now, whether that limit of adhesion is the true limit of the tires, or it came about because of poor input, is a story only an in-car coach or instructor can tell, unless you're an advanced driver with about 2 dozen weekends under your belt (or if you're the next coming of the new F1 champ, maybe a few less).

Also, on the E9X chassis body roll only comes if you're forcing the chassis to transfer weight unnecessarily quick. Meaning your inputs are ABRUPT. Or the movement of your hands are too quick that you're dialing in more turn before the suspension has a chance to set. While the E9X chassis, in stock form, isn't going to transition weight like a tube chassis race car or a go-kart, to make it transfer weight like that is possible. Except you wouldn't want to drive it on the street (duh. I wouldn't want to drive a tube frame race car or a go-kart on regular streets either).

I'm going to say, what you currently have is probably as close to a perfect compromise between a car that sees a few track events a year, and gets driven DAILY. Maybe it could use a little bit more camber if you haven't done so, but that will be at the expense of faster tire wear.

The biggest bang for the buck for you, IMO, is some driver's coaching. Someone in your car to point out to you what you're doing right and doing wrong. Save your money for mods, and once you can drive fast enough to induce limp mode 5 laps into any track session, then it's time to start upgrading. Or saving the 335i for daily and pick up a Miata for track.

[Killerfish2012]

Originally Posted by fenixsaint

What will give me the biggest bang for my buck? 17x9 square setup? Ohlins coilover? Oil cooler? LSD? M3 Bushings? M3 Control arms? Just guessing I'd say the the coilovers + corner balancing but I was hoping for some veteran input. Sorry I know this stuff gets asked all the time.

Koni Yellows, intercooler.

[fenixsaint]

Thanks for the input guys, lots of solid info here.

Originally Posted by nis270r

I would say go for a better suspension set-up, aftermarket shocks with stock springs is not a good combo for track, at least get a set of H&R/Eibach spring. As for coilovers, I see a lot of deals going on with many forum vendors on KW and H&R, I wouldn't get the performance exhaust as that's the least bang for your buck lol. Definitely M3 goodies as it's been widely published those components make a huge difference on handling. 18" lightweight rims would be more suitable. (Apex/Enkei/Advan/BBS)

In terms of power, get a downpipe or intercooler, a tune, then upgrade the brakes next! have fun dude!

The exhaust came with the car, can't complain. I don't think I really need any more power on the track, at least not yet. I'm thinking some eibach pro springs would be a good idea too.

Originally Posted by Smooth 330i

Suspension wise - suggest to get to know the car a bit better and do a thorough research. In the same time you can start buying M3 bits and subframe bushings (if you don't have them) and then install suspension and bits in the same time for the next season. That way you don't have to rush to make a quick decision, unless you already know what you want, and you would also have the car aligned once. You should really understand the suspension set-up on this car before purchasing the new one.

Probably right, I tend to get excited about stuff and dive in head first.

Originally Posted by The HACK

Are you doing events with a driving coach or instructor in car? Because based on your tire description and the fact that you haven't gone into limp mode, I would think there's something wrong with the driving, not the car.

The biggest bang for the buck for you, IMO, is some driver's coaching. Someone in your car to point out to you what you're doing right and doing wrong.

Yeah all my driving is with an instructor. I'm just starting out this season but I'm having a hell of a lot of fun. I agree I'm not pushing the 335 anywhere it's limits. Also I agree about driver training. I'm going to be attending as many driving school sessions as I can this summer.

Originally Posted by The HACK

Also, on the E9X chassis body roll only comes if you're forcing the chassis to transfer weight unnecessarily quick. Meaning your inputs are ABRUPT. Or the movement of your hands are too quick that you're dialing in more turn before the suspension has a chance to set. While the E9X chassis, in stock form, isn't going to transition weight like a tube chassis race car or a go-kart, to make it transfer weight like that is possible. Except you wouldn't want to drive it on the street (duh. I wouldn't want to drive a tube frame race car or a go-kart on regular streets either).

Full disclosure: I only noticed the body roll while doing figure 8 skid pad exercises. Seemed like the car was really leaning. Then again I don't drive like that every day.

So maybe I should hold off on big ticket upgrades for a while. What about just the following for this season:
-track set of brakes/rotors. suggestions?
-eibach pro springs (to go with the koni fsd)
-camber plates

Also, what do you guys recommend for m3 bits? which m3 parts are a waste of money?

[The HACK]

I still think you have the ideal compromise for a daily drive that sees very limited action on track. Anything you add to it now would just be a waste of money.

Especially since adding front camber is going to accelerate your tire wear, I would hold off on camber plates until you start seeing more track events where the track wear is out accelerating your DD wear.

The figure 8 stuff will exaggerate body roll because you're quickly transitioning from leaning one way to the other. Again, if you're not noticing it elsewhere on track, it's probably too early to start addressing "body roll" since you're in essence fixing it for one place, the figure 8, while not taking it into account for everywhere else, or 99.99% of your actual driving.

Sounds to me like you're just eager to spend money on modifying the car. There's nothing wrong with that. And frankly if you're just itching to spend money to mod the car, there's nothing that you can buy that will be detrimental to the car's "handling." Or, at least, not to the point where it'll actually matter to 99.95% of your driving. If that were the case, you should just get whatever it is that you want to get. Swaybars. M3 suspension bits. Springs (actually, I'd go straight to coil-overs for various reasons). Camber plates. Big brake kit. LSD. Get them all.

Although, on this car, what will give you the best bang for the buck, and I suspect this is what you want to hear all along, not what you need to hear...You'll want to get camber plates and LSD. More camber up front will allow you to create a larger and more consistent contact patch, and preserve your tires for track use. Limited Slip will allow the rear end to put power down more consistently rather than using the brakes in the rear to keep the inside tire from spinning needlessly.

[fenixsaint]

Thanks again for your input HACK, I always enjoy reading your posts. You obviously know your stuff.

Originally Posted by The HACK

Sounds to me like you're just eager to spend money on modifying the car. There's nothing wrong with that. And frankly if you're just itching to spend money to mod the car, there's nothing that you can buy that will be detrimental to the car's "handling."

When I first bought my 335i I loved driving it, and it was pretty fun. After almost a full year I finally tried out the Cobb Accessport and it blew my mind. While the car was good before I find it so much more enjoyable after. I guess this thread was my way of looking for a "handling" analog of the cobb tuner. Also I'm not made of money so I was looking for the best value/bang for buck mod after driver training.

Originally Posted by The HACK

Especially since adding front camber is going to accelerate your tire wear, I would hold off on camber plates until you start seeing more track events where the track wear is out accelerating your DD wear

We're talking about sidewall damage vs regular wear here right? My instructor told me I should be able to get a season or two on my tires with DD + 10-15 track days per year. I don't think I'll be seeing the wear for a while yet.

[J-Spec Dan]

as others have suggested, i'd hold off on modding and get more seat time with an instructor. i started last year and had a blast.

i'd also skip springs and go straight to coilovers if i could do it over again. eibach pro-kits are great for the street but are too soft for the track. 19s are too heavy for the track; definitely go with 17s or even 18s with a nice wide square setup.

only other suggestion i'd have would be keeping spare parts just in case. like vanos solenoid and such.

[Mavus]

Originally Posted by fenixsaint

Thanks again for your input HACK, I always enjoy reading your posts. You obviously know your stuff.



When I first bought my 335i I loved driving it, and it was pretty fun. After almost a full year I finally tried out the Cobb Accessport and it blew my mind. While the car was good before I find it so much more enjoyable after. I guess this thread was my way of looking for a "handling" analog of the cobb tuner. Also I'm not made of money so I was looking for the best value/bang for buck mod after driver training.



We're talking about sidewall damage vs regular wear here right? My instructor told me I should be able to get a season or two on my tires with DD + 10-15 track days per year. I don't think I'll be seeing the wear for a while yet.

Regarding tire wear that seems like a very optimistic estimate. Rears will wear off pretty quickly if you are pushing the car even a little. If you get 10-12K on your rears you are golden. Also, if running square set-up you can optimize tire wear by rotating wheels. 17" rubber is the best value. I usually buy 6 tires at once when I find a good deal.

[fenixsaint]

Damn, only 12k? Maybe I should invest in a square setup. At this rate I'm going to kill these 19s this season.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by fenixsaint

We're talking about sidewall damage vs regular wear here right? My instructor told me I should be able to get a season or two on my tires with DD + 10-15 track days per year. I don't think I'll be seeing the wear for a while yet.

Yes...And no.

What you'll start to notice, is the outside edge of the front tires wearing very fast the more you track. The reason being, BMWs (except for the F10 5 series) all come with MacPherson front struts, so as the car's outside suspension compresses, you'll start to lose negative camber and force the tire to spend more time on the outer edge of the tread block. Also, factory alignment setting typically has as little negative camber as possible (typically around -0.5-0.7º) with some toe-in to promote stability at higher speeds, resulting in more wear on the outside patch of the tire.

While normally, typical street driving with such little negative camber and toe-in should result in a fairly even wear, performance driving accelerates outer block wear due to the outside suspension losing camber. So the end result is the front end tire SHOULDER gets worn and eaten away the more you do DEs. If you start seeing some significantly uneven wear on the outside, it's probably time to start thinking about camber plates to prolong the use of your tires, or an extra set of wheel/tires that you can swap inside and out so you can preserve your daily drive tire. Because as you dial up the negative camber, the inside wear on the tire will accelerate from all the daily driving.

As a point of reference, my MZ4 Coupe is my primary track car. It has -3.5º of negative camber up front and -2.0º in the rear. Since it sees the majority of its miles on track, the track tires has very even wear all across the tread. However, I swap in my street tires outside of track weekends and the inside of each front tire are now seeing significantly more wear than the outside of the tires, and I am going to have to get new tires despite the outside block still having about 60% of its tread left, while the inside is about to see cords.

My daily driver, the Hyundai Veloster Turbo, has seen about 3 day's worth of track time, and despite my diligent rotating of the tires, all 4 tires are now seeing significant tread wear on the shoulder of each tire due to the lack of camber on both MacPherson strut front and trailing arm rear design. There are no "grooves" left on the outside shoulder of each tire. And this is from about 3 day's worth of track time (granted, I beat the mofo out of these tires, since the FWD platform understeers like crazy into tighter turns). Probably going to have to reconsider taking the Veloster Turbo to the track, for my own sanity sake.