[ihbase]

Because BMW already supports the 3.0 diesel in the US market X5 and 535d, and because the 3.0 is available in the European 330d, why wouldn't a 3.0 diesel f30 be introduced to the US market?

-Michael

[floydarogers]

Originally Posted by ihbase

Because BMW already supports the 3.0 diesel in the US market X5 and 535d, and because the 3.0 is available in the European 330d, why wouldn't a 3.0 diesel f30 be introduced to the US market?

Certification cost. Marketing cost.

[JesseJames]

Ask jeeves

[AzureHaze]

Originally Posted by floydarogers

Certification cost. Marketing cost.

+1. Unless the sales of the 328d, 535d and X5d can make it worth for the overlords in Munich to sign off on the F30/F32 335d for the US, I wouldn't hold my breath for it.

[ihbase]

Originally Posted by floydarogers

Certification cost. Marketing cost.

Ok. But certification cost can not be as high as new engine model cert costs because the motor currently meets US emissions in two other applications. So it is not as though the manufacture would have invest much of anything in development, correct? And marketing costs are volitional, not mandatory.

It seems to me that because BMW appears to be adopting an as-many-models-and-configurations-as-possible market strategy, a US 330d would be an easy addition.

I've driven both the 2.0 f30 and the 535d. The 2.0 is anemic and the 535d is a very impressive barge.

A 330d with a decent transmission would be welcome. It would also be the only 6 cylinder engine in a US market segment where the only current and foreseeable option from every German player is a lumpy four.


-Michael

[BB_cuda]

My opinion only. Why would the overlords put the 6 in the 3 when they can up sell you to 5 series instead. Look at Audi example with A4 and A6. I love the 6 in my 3 series but fear it may have been a one shot deal from 2009 to 2011. I hope I'm wrong.

[ihbase]

Originally Posted by BB_cuda

My opinion only. Why would the overlords put the 6 in the 3 when they can up sell you to 5 series instead. Look at Audi example with A4 and A6. I love the 6 in my 3 series but fear it may have been a one shot deal from 2009 to 2011. I hope I'm wrong.

Good point. But if BMW applied that logic, they would not offer a 3.0 diesel f30 in Europe either- right? I'm guessing that the 3 and the 5 target different customer demographics- at least I felt 30 years older when I spent a day with the 535d.

I wonder if the sales numbers of the 335d were so poor that the idea of a "performance diesel" is dead. All of the German diesel models in the US market now appear to be pitched on efficiency alone.

It is too bad. With a better transmission, a little less weight over the front axle, a little more weight over the rear axle at speeds over 130 MPH, and an LSD, the 335d would be close to the perfect all around automobile.

The upside, if there is no return of the 3.0 diesel to the US-market 3 Series, the depreciation costs of the 335d might level off.

-Michael

[joe_planet]

I think in time they will. Competition is a beautiful thing and audi wants a huge piece if the pie.

[floydarogers]

Originally Posted by ihbase

Ok. But certification cost can not be as high as new engine model cert costs because the motor currently meets US emissions in two other applications.

That doesn't matter at all because of the way certifications are done: you essentially start completely over with each combination of car, engine, transmission. There have been several threads about this, quoting costs around $5M/combination. You don't get a discount by using the same engine/tranny in another body/car.

[ihbase]

Originally Posted by floydarogers

That doesn't matter at all because of the way certifications are done: you essentially start completely over with each combination of car, engine, transmission. There have been several threads about this, quoting costs around $5M/combination. You don't get a discount by using the same engine/tranny in another body/car.

Fair enough. We can be certain that you know more about certification than I do. My point was only that the manufacturer would not have to develop new emissions technology for this market because the drivetrain already meets US emissions standards in two MY 2014 products. And the crash test standards are not new standards for the manufacturer because, presumably, the f30 has already gone through them in multiple power train configurations (if that is what is required).

Let's take your $5m number as the number- just for the hell of it, how many f30s would BMW have to sell over the lifespan of the certification (I assume it would last through the lifespan of the f30)? And to be fair, it would have to be unique 3.0 diesel f30 sales and not merely alternate sales from an f30 with a different drivetrain.

If BMW makes $10k per car, that if 500 units. That does not seem like very many to justify certification.

Let's say we are both off by half and make it $10m amortized over $5k profit per car- that is 2,000 units. Hell, they sold 10,000 335d units in North America (correct?) and that was on the tail-end of the recession.

So, the numbers look like a no-brainer. Why isn't BMW selling that car here already?

The answer may be in the European take rate. Perhaps the f30 3 Series is an economy option in Europe and so no one buys the 3.0 on the continent. But the torque characteristics of the motor are attractive to the heavy luxury car buyer and so it makes sense in the 5 and 7 but not the 3- where the economy buyer takes the 2.0 and the "performance" buyer takes the turbocharged gas motor.

Does anyone know what the 3.0 diesel take rate is in Europe?

Finally, if the 3.0 does not come to the US f30, which car are you considering as a replacement for your 335d when the time is due? Will you stay with BMW? Will you stay with the diesel platform?

-Michael

[DieselRacer]

Not a chance coming to the USA, it's what we want, why would BMW do that for us...

[Pierre Louis]

Curb weight comparison: perhaps "trading up" from a 2011 335d to a 2014 535d might be more of a parallel move than some think:

North American 2011 335d: 3,825 lbs
North American 2014 328d: 3,461 lbs.
North American 2014 535d: 4,085 lbs.

European 2011 335d: 3483 lbs
European 2014 330d: 3395 lbs
European 2014 530d: 3770 lbs

Maybe they are counting the driver for NA ha ha.

The difference between a NA 2011 335d and a NA 535d is approximately 260 lbs. Not a huge difference. But a 2014 European 330d weighs a whopping 385 lbs. less than a European 530d!

Perhaps a 2015 North American 335d would weigh in at 3700 lbs. That would be a bahnstormer of a car!

PL

[Yozh]

342 lbs difference between the European and US spec 335d. I wonder what is that difference, some emission stuff, may be different sound insulation, 5mph bumpers. But to come to 342 lbs, this is crazy.

[PJPHughes]

Having just come back from Austria and Germany where I rented a 318d Touring with a 6 speed manual, I can tell you that I didn't see any F30s that were over a 320d in and around Vienna or Salzburg. Lots of 520d M Sports around too...and about 70 percent were wagons. I saw one M135i in Estoril Blue...but that was one of the few gasoline engines.

I really enjoyed the diesel with a manual...not fast by any means, but more than adequate. Upshift at under 2000rpm and the torque pulls you along perfectly. And at over $130 to fill the tank, I was more than happy with a super efficient diesel engine. The US market has become so performance oriented, but it's amazing how much fun 143hp can actually be, and the get the benefits of over 50mpg. I wish we could get a manual transmission in the diesel here, but that's only in a VW TDI.

It's not surprising when you're paying almost $8 a gallon for diesel that the European driver will give up a displacement in favor of MPG/ l/100km. VAT on vehicles is much higher as well....I sat in a 535d Touring at the BMW Welt in Munich, and it was 106K Euros!! My ideal car, at US prices..would be mid $70s if it came here?

European business drivers also pay a lot less road tax if the engines are of a particular displacement or generate <119g/km of C02...that's one of the other reasons why you see plenty of 2 liter diesels and under. The 320d Efficient Dynamics version is the UK's most popular BMW, I think....

[floydarogers]

Originally Posted by Yozh

342 lbs difference between the European and US spec 335d. I wonder what is that difference, some emission stuff, may be different sound insulation, 5mph bumpers. But to come to 342 lbs, this is crazy.

DEF tank and SCR stuff, not insignificant.
The main difference, though, is probably all the luxury stuff we get - 335d/US is a loaded car with power seats, sunroof, and other stuff not counted in the EU version specs. Probably a different spec on how you actually weight them, too.

[floydarogers]

Originally Posted by ihbase

...If BMW makes $10k per car, that if 500 units. That does not seem like very many to justify certification.
...
So, the numbers look like a no-brainer. Why isn't BMW selling that car here already?

...
Does anyone know what the 3.0 diesel take rate is in Europe?

Finally, if the 3.0 does not come to the US f30, which car are you considering as a replacement for your 335d when the time is due? Will you stay with BMW? Will you stay with the diesel platform?

BMW did sell 10000 335d in the US (you can find the number on the EPA website if you look enough!) over three years. They were fairly heavily discounted though.

One thing your numbers ignore is that, yeah, it costs $10K for each of 500 units; but they have to make a profit ABOVE that, not INSTEAD of. They can't have the diesel costing much more than it currently is - $1500 - above the gas version.

Diesels make up around 1/2 or more of all cars sold in EU; not sure what the take rate on the 330d/335d/530d/535d/730d/735d versus their gas equivalents, but most of the ones I've seen are diesel (I have a pic of a 730d in Budapest, for instance.) Most of the X5/X3 in EU are diesel rather than gas.

My wife bought a 328xd sedan yesterday.

[DieselRacer]

I wish they would I love the f30 body style sedan especially with the m sport package, love it...

[PJPHughes]

The 328d M Sport wagon in Estoril Blue is a pretty sharp looking eco-sportwagon. I've seen one here in the LA area...although I'm addicted to my 425 lb ft....

[BB_cuda]

Post #14 is stirring up the split pipe envy again. US spec 535D had 2 pipes together on driver side

[AzureHaze]

Originally Posted by BB_cuda

Post #14 is stirring up the split pipe envy again. US spec 535D had 2 pipes together on driver side

Strangely that annoys me. Maybe because I have this fascination with exhaust pipes and anything especially with quads catch my attention.

[Puerto Rican 335d]

PJ love that wagon damn it BMW why didnt you bring the Touring for us on 335d version, BASTARDS!!

[Bicax]

If it makes you feel any better, the new 335d doesn't have the separate pipes anymore even in Europe :-(

My next will be an Audi I say.