Jenson Button's view on noise and torque of the turbo 6 vs NA V8...

[Boss330]

In Autosport today:

http://plus.autosport.com/premium/fe...nk-of-f1-2014/

ENGINE/POWER:
On their own the 1.6-litre turbos produce a little over 600bhp, with the ERS adding as much as 160bhp to that. The overall power is thus similar to the old V8s, but it is the increased torque that is the big change.

It's something McLaren's Jenson Button likes. "I enjoy driving this car," he says. "The power of the engine is nice. It's very torquey.

"It feels the most powerful engine I've driven. It obviously isn't in terms of outright power, but as a racing driver you feel the torque and power at slow speed. It's coming out of the corners when you have so much torque that's exciting."

Williams's Valtteri Bottas agrees: "I really enjoy this, it's good fun. The power feels nice, so no complaints.

"You can really feel the difference and have to modify your driving style a little bit. I also think setting up the car might be a little bit different."

Esteban Gutierrez likened his Sauber to a GP3 car, but still feels the new cars are good to drive. "It's more enjoyable," he says.

"The whole concept of the feeling is a little like the GP3 car I would say - the way the turbo and the torque come in. It is a very different scale because you have a lot more power and the ERS.

"We have more power and I'm enjoying the way it feels. You also have a greater range with the gears, and you can shift early and still get the power."

Sauber team-mate Adrian Sutil adds: "It's not about using all the rev band anymore. The V8 was operating between 15 and 18,000rpm, so you always had to keep the revs up.

"We also have eight gears now, so you never run into a limiter at the end of the straight. You can go at almost 400km/h with these gears, so it's very different."

SOUND:
Not everyone is a fan of the new sound of F1. The cars certainly aren't as loud as the old V8s, but AUTOSPORT has quite enjoyed hearing the turbos charging round Jerez.

Nico Rosberg believes they are reminiscent of the turbocars his father Keke drove. "The engine sound isn't as good as last year, but I think it's OK," he says. "It reminds me a bit of the 1980s, when I was watching on TV all those races in the turbo era."

Ferrari star Fernando Alonso doesn't believe the reduced sound harms F1 either. "It's not like last year we were just enjoying the sound of the engine, we were concentrating on the car," he says. "This is Formula 1 and it's the best technology in the world."

For the drivers inside the car, it's even more of a change than for those watching - and listening – from the outside.

"The power unit doesn't sound as good from the outside," concedes Button, "but when you're driving it, it sounds good. We've got the turbo noise, the wastegate noise; it's quite a nice change.

"There are moments where you're part-throttle through a corner when there's all sorts going on – with different noises with the turbo, the wastegate, the ERS unit.

"You've really got to take your mind away from the noise."

Supposedly not running above 13.000rpm's yet

A better clip of the 2014 sound:

[Sedan_Clan]

Nice insight. Hmmm, F1 driver's not resistant to change...........BMW drivers? Wellllll!

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Nice insight. Hmmm, F1 driver's not resistant to change...........BMW drivers? Wellllll!

Not only that but:

"It feels the most powerful engine I've driven. It obviously isn't in terms of outright power, but as a racing driver you feel the torque and power at slow speed. It's coming out of the corners when you have so much torque that's exciting."

Surely, that isn't at all relevant to a production car...

[solstice]

So the newest most high tech FI engines in the world with the most accomplished drivers in the world still short shifts and ride the torque. I.e not much has changed in the power delivery and driving style of FI cars lately and frankly why should it? Low end grunt is what's special with FI and linear power build to a high redline with a glorious sound track is what's special with NA racing engines. Both are cool in their own way.

[/// M sa]

BMW, hurry up and take my money already.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by solstice

So the newest most high tech FI engines in the world with the most accomplished drivers in the world still short shifts and ride the torque. I.e not much has changed in the power delivery and driving style of FI cars lately and frankly why should it? Low end grunt is what's special with FI and linear power build to a high redline is what's special with NA racing engines. Both are cool in their own way.

It sounds like you believe they allways shortshift

"We have more power and I'm enjoying the way it feels. You also have a greater range with the gears, and you can shift early and still get the power."

Sauber team-mate Adrian Sutil adds: "It's not about using all the rev band anymore. The V8 was operating between 15 and 18,000rpm, so you always had to keep the revs up.

The drivers like the way the engine feels, they comment on how it's more exciting coming out of corners and that they can shortshift and still get the power. Doesn't say anywhere that they have to shortshift, just that they now have the ability to shortshift at certain parts of the track where shortshifting is beneficial for traction or stability.

A modern turbo engine, especially with DI, goes a long way towards giving you the best of both worlds. Low and mid range grunt combined with high end power and high(ish) redline. Sound do suffer from turbocharging.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by Boss330

It sounds like you believe they allways shortshift



The drivers like the way the engine feels, they comment on how it's more exciting coming out of corners and that they can shortshift and still get the power. Doesn't say anywhere that they have to shortshift, just that they now have the ability to shortshift at certain parts of the track where shortshifting is beneficial for traction or stability.

A modern turbo engine, especially with DI, goes a long way towards giving you the best of both worlds. Low and mid range grunt combined with high end power and high(ish) redline. Sound do suffer from turbocharging.

I did not say they have to but acknowledging that you don't need to in a sport where hundreds of seconds can mean the difference between pole or no pole you can't afford to not run the car optimally. These guys are not paid millions to be out on fun drives. Everything counts and if you "can" drive the car without running it redline in an F1 race it is in practicality quite close to saying you have to. Again though I did not say it nor mean it. It is however how the cars will often be driven, if not for anything else to save the engine from unnecessary heat and high rpm wear.

[JS919]

Originally Posted by solstice

So the newest most high tech FI engines in the world with the most accomplished drivers in the world still short shifts and ride the torque. I.e not much has changed in the power delivery and driving style of FI cars lately and frankly why should it? Low end grunt is what's special with FI and linear power build to a high redline with a glorious sound track is what's special with NA racing engines. Both are cool in their own way.

Huh? What are you talking about? Not much has changed lately. They are going from NA 2.4L v8 engines that only made power between 15,000 - 18,000 rpm in 2013 and prior to a 1.6L V6 turbo with an electric motor that keeps the turbo spooled up and 15,000 RPM rev limiter. The original post is all about how much the power delivery has changed for 2014.

Read the original post again. I think you're missing something.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Jonas

Huh? What are you talking about? Not much has changed lately. They are going from NA 2.4L v8 engines that only made power between 15,000 - 18,000 rpm in 2013 and prior to a 1.6L V6 turbo with an electric motor that keeps the turbo spooled up and 15,000 RPM rev limiter. The article the OP originally posted is all about how much the power delivery has changed for 2014.

Read the original post again. I think you're missing something.

He is talking about the power delivery of FI, not F1. Looks similar, but big difference between the "I" and the "1" here

[solstice]

Originally Posted by Jonas

Huh? What are you talking about? Not much has changed lately. They are going from NA 2.4L v8 engines that only made power between 15,000 - 18,000 rpm in 2013 and prior to a 1.6L V6 turbo with an electric motor that keeps the turbo spooled up and 15,000 RPM rev limiter. The original post is all about how much the power delivery has changed for 2014.

Read the original post again. I think you're missing something.

Uhm, yeah though if you read my comment it's about driving style of an FI race car vs an NA race car. Not much has changed with the newest FI tech. and this is just what you acknowledge with your comment, I.e that difference is major vs. last years NA engines. We are saying the same thing.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by solstice

I did not say they have to but acknowledging that you don't need to in a sport where hundreds of seconds can mean the difference between pole or no pole you can't afford to not run the car optimally. These guys are not paid millions to be out on fun drives. Everything counts and if you "can" drive the car without running it redline in an F1 race it is in practicality quite close to saying you have to. Again though I did not say it nor mean it. It is however how the cars will often be driven, if not for anything else to save the engine from unnecessary heat and high rpm wear.

Well, first of all that was not what they said... And second of all, these are comments made as a general observation on engines after 3 days of testing the New engines. With massive problems for many of the teams with limited running (Red Bull has had the most problems with only 14 laps over 3 days...).

If you follow F1, you will also realize that even with the V8's they shortshifted at certain corners or parts of the track, or when it was wet. So shortshifting is nothing new. It's just that the redline (by the rules) now is 15.000rpm and shortshifting last year meant shifting at 16.000rpm instead of at 18.000rpm.

And F1 isn't just about setting the fastest lap time every lap. Last few years there have been plenty of races with fuel saving (they are not allowed to refuel) and tire saving, with shortshifting playing a big part of conserving fuel and tires.

The comment from the F1 driver wasn't that you should shortshift to get the best lap time, but that you could and still get power.

If they always shortshift, then why bother with developing engines that has the ability to rev to 15.000rpm at all?

And high rpm wear? Seriously! The redline is 15.000rpm this year, and has come down from 18.000rpm. To me, it sounds like you believe the F1 engines in 2014 will spend most of their time in the mid to low rpm range...

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by solstice

Not much has changed with the newest FI tech.

The FI Tech in F1 2014 is so far beyond the tech that was in turbos earlier.

And have you heard how reviewers like Chris Harris comments on how the engine in the M6 GC feels and acts both at mid range and especially at high rpm's? That is an opinion that is also widely reported in other tests and one that I regard with more weight, as he drives and compares loads of different cars the way they are meant to be driven. (BTW Chris Harris used to own an E92 M3, just as a reference on the cars he likes/liked personally...)

[solstice]

Originally Posted by Boss330

The FI Tech in F1 2014 is so far beyond the tech that was in turbos earlier.

And have you heard how reviewers like Chris Harris comments on how the engine in the M6 GC feels and acts both at mid range and especially at high rpm's? That is an opinion that is also widely reported in other tests and one that I regard with more weight, as he drives and compares loads of different cars the way they are meant to be driven. (BTW Chris Harris used to own an E92 M3, just as a reference on the cars he likes/liked personally...)

Seriously? I should go by what Chris Harris says about a car I've tracked myself? Over an out

[Needsdecaf]

I love how there's a giant schlong on the front of the car. Schwing!!

[mister2d]

:17 - :21 gives me goosebumps
:40 - :42 M3 burp/fart

I love it all!

[solstice]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

I love how there's a giant schlong on the front of the car. Schwing!!

Hehe, yeah most of the new cars look pretty terrible. Some like you pulled a "safe sex device" with a "swimmers container" in the front over the whole package including the nuts. As you say schwing away!!

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by solstice

Seriously? I should go by what Chris Harris says about a car I've tracked myself? Over an out

You don't have to. But I value his view higher than your "it's better to shortshift at all times in a FI engine". I'm pretty sure his driving style of the F1x M5/6 is faster than your shortshift style.

BTW, Sport Auto has scored the 991 Turbo S higher than the 991 GT3 for the first time in their Supertest history. Horst von Saurma calls it the "world's best car" at the moment!!! I'm also pretty sure that they didn't drive the 991 Turbo S with your preferred FI "short shift at all times to get the fastest lap times" method to beat the GT3...

For me it's easy to decide who I should listen to between Sport Auto testers, Chris Harris, F1 drivers and random people on a internet forum that "have tracked a M5"

To paraphrase; Seriously? I should go by what Solstice says about a car he has "tracked" once over what Chris Harris, Sport Auto etc says about the F1x M5/6? Over and out!

[Kadema]

Well, there was this detailed und very high quality discussion between CanAutM3 and swamp2 not long ago, where they proofed/agreed that at least the new S55 has to be shirtshifted all the time to get maximum performance. There was only some minor disagreement on how exactly drive train losses count in and thus where optimal shiftpoints exactly are. And to me, that is some dissapointment and one of the few unjustified bmw marketing boasts, too. Often I feel forumers here rant about marketing way too early, when actually they just don't get their facts right. But in that case, bmw.de advertised above mentioned "best of both worlds" -high red redline and low/mid range torque- when actually it isn't fully useable. That and the way they made us believe 3300lbs is EU and not DIN weight was real marketing deception in my view and I'm angry about it.
Anyway, I'm sure there is huge progression in FI technology in many aspects and no, it's not the same like a few years ago.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Kadema

Well, there was this detailed und very high quality discussion between CanAutM3 and swamp2 not long ago, where they proofed/agreed that at least the new S55 has to be shirtshifted all the time to get maximum performance. There was only some minor disagreement on how exactly drive train losses count in and thus where optimal shiftpoints exactly are. And to me, that is some dissapointment and one of the few unjustified bmw marketing boasts, too. Often I feel forumers here rant about marketing way too early, when actually they just don't get their facts right. But in that case, bmw.de advertised above mentioned "best of both worlds" -high red redline and low/mid range torque- when actually it isn't fully useable. That and the way they made us believe 3300lbs is EU and not DIN weight was real marketing deception in my view and I'm angry about it.
Anyway, I'm sure there is huge progression in FI technology in many aspects and no, it's not the same like a few years ago.

The discussion you refer to did NOT conclude that the S55 needed to be shortshifted all the time. Quite the contrary, simple simulations and calculations show that in every gear from at least 1st to 4th it's beneficial to go to the redline or slightly below (like 7300rpm) with the S55 as you have less torque to the wheels in the next higher gear.

Just an easy calculation on torque to the wheels in each gear will give you a clue on whether it's beneficial to shortshift or go to the redline. If you get less torque to the wheels if you change up, then don't change up as acceleration will decrease. If you get more torque to the wheels by changing up, then you should do that.

See how the torque to wheels work out for the S55 here:

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...&postcount=188

[Kadema]

No, that must have been a different discussion. I'll look it up. That wasn't the one you participated lately and it had some quite complex mathematics in it. I don't agree with your above mentioned easy calculations as they don't take frictional and inertial losses in the drivetrain sufficiently into consideration. But I don't want to start the whole argument again right here. If I find the time on the week end, maybe I'll try and start a thread with links to relevant posts and we see if we can get some things clear altogether.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Kadema

No, that must have been a different discussion. I'll look it up. That wasn't the one you participated lately and it had some quite complex mathematics in it. I don't agree with your above mentioned easy calculations as they don't take frictional and inertial losses in the drivetrain sufficiently into consideration. But I don't want to start the whole argument again right here. If I find the time on the week end, maybe I'll try and start a thread with links to relevant posts and we see if we can get some things clear altogether.

Well, if you find it, then both Swamp2 and CanAutM3 must have changed their mind afterwards because they both agree that it's better to change up at redline(ish), and not at peak torque...

Here are swamp2's simulations:

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=847578

I'll quote him on the following:

I’m not also going to recall my prior statement that the new M3/M4 will require shifting at redline in all gears to extract maximum performance

[Kadema]

Uh, well, now it seems the argument does start all over again. Of course you won't shift at maximum torque, I never claimed that. But you don't revv up to the redline with S55 either. On first sight, I can't find your quoted statement from swamp2, but it seems to contradict everything what I've read from him so far. I don't know. Anyway, I'm a MD in a big hospital and don't have the time to go into details right now. Also, I'm struggling with my english a bit every now and then. You're german, aren't you? Maybe we can pm later, this would make things easier for me?

Kadema