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      01-23-2014, 12:08 AM   #1
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Loaded M4 vs. base Porsche 911 (991 3.4L Carrera)

There used to be a relatively significant price difference between a previous generation M3 coupe and previous gen 911 (997). By way of example, a somewhat loaded ZCP E92 with MDCT ran in high 60s MSRP, while base 997 ran in mid 80s. The gap was further increased due to the relatively high discounts that could be had for the M3 vs much smaller discounts on a 997.

The picture seems to be different with current gen offerings: based on available numbers for the M4, it will likely touch mid 80s without trying too hard. With most initial purchases expected to be at or near MSRP (above in some cases), the M4 is now firmly in the 991 911 pricing territory. (Porsche pricing assumes moderate performance options, in line with what M4 has to offer)

So, a question for those who are actually in the market for a ~85k+ 2+2 coupe, when the hype and dust both settle, which car ends up in the garage?

Last edited by PawnStar; 01-23-2014 at 09:50 AM..
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      01-23-2014, 12:22 AM   #2
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They're not exactly comparable in price. The M4 starts at $64,200 and the 991 starts at $84,300. You're trying to compare a heavily optioned M4 to a base 991. If someone is going to add DCT, ceramic brakes, full leather, executive package, etc. to the M4, then surely they would want the same features in the Porsche. A similarly optioned 991 would cost well over $105k.
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      01-23-2014, 12:23 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PawnStar View Post
There used to be a relatively significant price difference between a previous generation M3 coupe and previous gen 911 (997). By way of example, a somewhat loaded ZCP E92 with MDCT ran in high 60s MSRP, while base 997 ran in mid 80s. The gap was further increased due to the relatively high discounts that could be had for the M3 vs much smaller discounts on a 997.

The picture seems to be different with current gen offerings: based on available numbers for the M4, it will likely touch mid 80s without trying too hard. With most initial purchases expected to be at or near MSRP (above in some cases), the M4 is now firmly in the 991 911 pricing territory. (Porsche pricing assumes moderate performance options, in line with what M4 has to offer)

So, a question for those who are actually in the market for a ~85k+ 2+2 coupe, when the hype and dust both settle, which car ends up in the garage?
If I look at my local Porsche dealer, there is no 911 in stock below $100K and no Carrera S below $115K.

I think your numbers are fictional numbers. In real life, I bet a well equipped M3 averages $25K less than a 911 Carrera non-S.

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      01-23-2014, 12:24 AM   #4
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even if the M4 is mid 80s. if you actually look into buying a 911 you will find that there are a ton of options for the car. most 911s you see will be sticker price over 90 grand.

plus i would at least want a 911 carrera s.

so really the loaded M4 is BARELY priced at a base 911. i wouldn't really call it firmly priced in with a 911.
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      01-23-2014, 12:32 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IE92 View Post
They're not exactly comparable in price. The M4 starts at $64,200 and the 991 starts at $84,300. You're trying to compare a heavily optioned M4 to a base 991. If someone is going to add DCT, ceramic brakes, full leather, executive package, etc. to the M4, then surely they would want the same features in the Porsche. A similarly optioned 991 would cost well over $105k.
While I agree with the premise of a 'base' price disparity, the real world numbers for most reasonably equipped M4s will be mid to high 80s, regardless of where they 'start'.

A PDK equipped 991 can be had for similar, if not less money. Superfluous packages notwithstanding.

While contemplating an $85-90k coupe purchase, 991 will surely pop on the radar of most, if not all, buyers (shoppers and dreamers are excluded for obvious reasons)
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      01-23-2014, 12:44 AM   #6
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In Canada the M4 starts at $75k and the 911 C2 starts at $96,200 while C2S starts at $112,800. For a 911 I would go straight to the S model. Even a loaded M4 with all options will not even be what the start price of the C2S.

I do agree that personally I would consider a 911 but the price difference and the options list along with high payments would keep me away from a 911.
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      01-23-2014, 12:50 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catpat8000 View Post
If I look at my local Porsche dealer, there is no 911 in stock below $100K and no Carrera S below $115K.

I think your numbers are fictional numbers. In real life, I bet a well equipped M3 averages $25K less than a 911 Carrera non-S.

Pat

Misinformation at best. First, no mention in my post about a 4 door m3. Just the 2 door M4. Second, I just configured a red/tan 991 on Porscheusa.com, with PDK and Premium package it will run 92595. About 88k with a reasonable 5% off MSRP, the car can be ordered from any one of my local dealers for April delivery. No hassle, no option credits, usaa, loyalty, team USA credits, holiday cash, over invoice, under invoice, or any other silly buyer inducements to worry about.

Nothing fictional about that.
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      01-23-2014, 12:58 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catpat8000 View Post
If I look at my local Porsche dealer, there is no 911 in stock below $100K and no Carrera S below $115K.

I think your numbers are fictional numbers. In real life, I bet a well equipped M3 averages $25K less than a 911 Carrera non-S.

Pat
I agree with you. Base Carrera's all over 100k with S in the 110's. The M4 if optioned is still gonna be in the low 70's imo. I'd get all the must haves dont need B&O special leathers etc...Nav is standard, Im thinking exec package, DCT, 19's dont know much else I'd get...
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      01-23-2014, 06:11 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PawnStar View Post
Misinformation at best. First, no mention in my post about a 4 door m3. Just the 2 door M4. Second, I just configured a red/tan 991 on Porscheusa.com, with PDK and Premium package it will run 92595. About 88k with a reasonable 5% off MSRP, the car can be ordered from any one of my local dealers for April delivery. No hassle, no option credits, usaa, loyalty, team USA credits, holiday cash, over invoice, under invoice, or any other silly buyer inducements to worry about.

Nothing fictional about that.
You can usually get 10% off an order with little haggling. There is a huge mark up on the 911 and if you deal right you can get a large % off ones on the lot. With that said they are 2 totally different cars and I would only get an S but that's just me.
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      01-23-2014, 06:49 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PawnStar View Post
There used to be a relatively significant price difference between a previous generation M3 coupe and previous gen 911 (997).
What I see is a single digit percentage increase in the base price of an F82 M4 over an E92 M3, and a single digit percentage increase in the base price of a 991 911 over a 997.2 911. Comparably-equipped prices and fully loaded prices exhibit the same sort of similarities.

So there is nothing really changing the game if you look at the raw numbers, and we've been down this road before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PawnStar View Post
About 88k with a reasonable 5% off MSRP, the car can be ordered from any one of my local dealers for April delivery.
I'm sure that would be a fantastic purchase as would the similarly equipped, similarly discounted M4 in the low 70s.
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      01-23-2014, 06:50 AM   #11
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My relatively well equipped DCT M4 will come out around $86k CAD.

I did look at the Porsche 991. I configured a 911 4S with the important performance options (power pack and the sort but not $995 embossed in the headreat Porshe logo type options) and it came out at $165k CAD . The GT3 starts at $148k...

So in Canada, they are not in the same price range at all.
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      01-23-2014, 07:58 AM   #12
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No! 911 S is the only way to go and that is well over 100k.
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      01-23-2014, 08:08 AM   #13
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There is no similarity in price. Everything is al la carte in a Porsche. Minimizing options will still be +$10 K over the base, plus the maintenance costs
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      01-23-2014, 08:23 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PawnStar View Post
Misinformation at best. First, no mention in my post about a 4 door m3. Just the 2 door M4. Second, I just configured a red/tan 991 on Porscheusa.com, with PDK and Premium package it will run 92595. About 88k with a reasonable 5% off MSRP, the car can be ordered from any one of my local dealers for April delivery. No hassle, no option credits, usaa, loyalty, team USA credits, holiday cash, over invoice, under invoice, or any other silly buyer inducements to worry about.

Nothing fictional about that.
Dude, you are manipulating the $$ to make your point, and even though every single person in this post has refuted you, you still insist on making the arguments. So I'll do the math.

To get an M4 to $85k, one would have to start at $64,200 and then add $20k in options. Thusly:

Base M4 - $64,200
CCB's - $7,500
Exec Package - $3,900
Metallic - $550
Driver Assist Plus - $1,900
Harmon Kardon - $875
MDCT - $2,900
Adaptive suspension - $1,000
19" wheels - $1,200

Destination - $925

Total - $84,950

So, to get a Carerra optioned in a similar manner:

Base Carrera: $84,300

Bose Audio Package: $2,120
Premium Plus w/ Power Sport Seats: $2,330
Metallic: $710
Standard interior with leather seats: $1,550
Park Assist Front & Rear: $990
Dynamic Lights: $Inc in package
PASM: $2,090
PCCB's: $8,520
PDK: $4,080
19 Wheels: INC
Power Sport Seats with Memory Package: $2,320
Carbon console trim: $630
Carbon Interior Package: $1,770
Voice Control: $595
PTV Plus: $1,490

Total: $114,495

So almost exactly $30k more, comparably equipped. YOu could argue that the Porsche could be optioned out more reasonably. And I agree. But then it wouldn't be apples to apples now would it.

Let's go a bit more luxury, without the CCB's, and without Driver assist, but adding in LED lights and extended leather:

Base M4 - $64,200
Exec Package - $3,900
Metallic - $550
Lighting Package - $1,900
Harmon Kardon - $875
MDCT - $2,900
Adaptive suspension - $1,000
19" wheels - $1,200
Full Leather - $1,100 with exec Pack

Destination - $925

Total - $78,550

Now a similar Porsche. I'll even take off the ridiculous carbon trim:

Base Carrera: $84,300

Bose Audio Package: $2,120
Premium Plus w/ Power Sport Seats: $2,330
Metallic: $710
Leather Interior: $3,690
Park Assist Front & Rear: $990
LED Headlights: $3,110
PASM: $2,090
PDK: $4,080
19 Wheels: INC
Power Sport Seats with Memory Package: $2,320
Interior Package in Leather (i.c.w. Leather Interior)
Voice Control: $595
PTV Plus: $1,490

Total: $109,610

So now the difference is over $31k.

Face it, no matter how you slice it, if you want to get the cars equipped reasonably the same, you're looking at $20k difference. To say nothing of the fact that you're down 50 HP and over 100 ft. lbs of torque. Argue all you want, you won't be right.

You're also discussing a discounted price vs. full MSRP. Which is bunk. The M4 WILL have discounts available within 6-12 months, just as the 991 does now. I'm sure when the 991 was out there was no haggling then either. So say in a year, you're taking 10% off the 991, and 7% off for Euro delivery or a combination of year end / CCA / USAA, etc. That leaves you with:

$79,003 vs. $103,495

and

$73,051 vs. $98,649

So your difference is $24k and $25k respectively.

To get a car that has less power and a lot less torque. Oh, and next to no back seat. That's a big difference to many buyers. The M4 is generally used way more day to day than the 911

Sorry, just not comparable.

Last edited by Needsdecaf; 01-23-2014 at 08:32 AM..
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      01-23-2014, 08:30 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PawnStar View Post
There used to be a relatively significant price difference between a previous generation M3 coupe and previous gen 911 (997). By way of example, a somewhat loaded ZCP E92 with MDCT ran in high 60s MSRP, while base 997 ran in mid 80s. The gap was further increased due to the relatively high discounts that could be had for the M3 vs much smaller discounts on a 997.

The picture seems to be different with current gen offerings: based on available numbers for the M4, it will likely touch mid 80s without trying too hard. With most initial purchases expected to be at or near MSRP (above in some cases), the M4 is now firmly in the 991 911 pricing territory. (Porsche pricing assumes moderate performance options, in line with what M4 has to offer)

So, a question for those who are actually in the market for a ~85k+ 2+2 coupe, when the hype and dust both settle, which car ends up in the garage?
yet again, the m4 ONLY reaches 85k if you option like an idiot and tick every box. even then, it will be far more well equipped than a base 911 which is stripped in base form.

that said ive driven a 991 c4s and if it cost the same as an m4 there is no way I would take the m4. the c4s is THAT damn good

you can get a very well equipped m4 for 70k and the Porsche is far more expensive and has far less tech and space.

different cars at different price points
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      01-23-2014, 08:42 AM   #16
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I think a better comparison is a m4 vs a 2012 or 2013 991. A 2012 fully loaded c2s with a $120k sticker (sport chrono, sport exhaust, pasm, pdcc, burmeister sound etc.) can be had for below $90k today. Since the M4 won't arrive till summer, the Porsche will probably be no more than $80k even by then (low 70's for a less equipped car). One is new, one is used but an interesting decision.
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      01-23-2014, 08:48 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caneaddict View Post
I think a better comparison is a m4 vs a 2012 or 2013 991. A 2012 fully loaded c2s with a $120k sticker (sport chrono, sport exhaust, pasm, pdcc, burmeister sound etc.) can be had for below $90k today. Since the M4 won't arrive till summer, the Porsche will probably be no more than $80k even by then (low 70's for a less equipped car). One is new, one is used but an interesting decision.
there are very few of these actually available for under 90k right now.

can you link a few that are fully loaded and under 90k?

and again, the m4 can be had equally equipped for 70k new. still a large price delta.
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      01-23-2014, 08:50 AM   #18
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I think a better comparison would be the Boxster S. My recently sold ride to make space for the M4 was a nearly fully loaded Convertible which I got for 80k. The performance easily bested that of an E93 in a beautiful package. A comparably equipped 2014 Boxster S can be had for same price as M4 although I will admit that new M4 has improved and distanced itself from the current Boxster and why I easily made the choice to switch after only a short time with her. I don't drive in winter months so just sold it for nearly what I paid for her. Here are a a couple of Pics to help you appreciate my position in my garage and when I picked her up from Dealer.
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      01-23-2014, 08:54 AM   #19
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It seems there's a disconnect between OP and some of the responses, so a clarification is in order. I used words like 'initial' orders and 'similar performance options' to draw comparisons. I fail to see how optioning up 991 with 18 way seats, more leather, carbon inlays, Bose audio package and glowin the dark emblems are related to performance.

Also, initial orders, not orders placed in 12 months, would necessitate comparisons between a non-discounted M4 and a discounted 991, nothing wrong with either one, just the way it is for now.

So then, a rather simpler question is:

$85k new M4 or ~$88k new 911?
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      01-23-2014, 08:56 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PawnStar View Post
It seems there's a disconnect between OP and some of the responses, so a clarification is in order. I used words like 'initial' orders and 'similar performance options' to draw comparisons. I fail to see how optioning up 991 with 18 way seats, more leather, carbon inlays, Bose audio package and glowin the dark emblems are related to performance.

Also, initial orders, not orders placed in 12 months, would necessitate comparisons between a non-discounted M4 and a discounted 991, nothing wrong with either one, just the way it is for now.

So then, a rather simpler question is:

$85k new M4 or ~$88k new 911?
SO, why load up the m4 with useless non performance oriented crap to make the base price jump by 20k dollars when NOT doing that to the Porsche? If someone wants no extra options......why would that NOT apply to both cars?

your comparison makes no sense. you wanna compare base to base, fine. 64k vs 92k.

Here is some context for those reading this thread and this guy's unbalanced and biased comparison. He also brought us this gem of a comparison....the 550ix vs the m3.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=935992
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      01-23-2014, 08:59 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suave View Post
I think a better comparison would be the Boxster S. My recently sold ride to make space for the M4 was a nearly fully loaded Convertible which I got for 80k. The performance easily bested that of an E93 in a beautiful package. A comparably equipped 2014 Boxster S can be had for same price as M4 although I will admit that new M4 has improved and distanced itself from the current Boxster and why I easily made the choice to switch after only a short time with her. I don't drive in winter months so just sold it for nearly what I paid for her. Here are a a couple of Pics to help you appreciate my position in my garage and when I picked her up from Dealer.

I had a regular Boxster last year with a manual, had a lot of fun with it. Boxster S is that much more ...suave... I'm sure. But M4 and 991 are both 2+2...
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      01-23-2014, 09:03 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyPowers View Post
SO, why load up the m4 with useless non performance oriented crap to make the base price jump by 20k dollars when NOT doing that to the Porsche? If someone wants no extra options......why would that NOT apply to both cars?

your comparison makes no sense. you wanna compare base to base, fine. 64k vs 92k.

Here is some context for those reading this thread and this guy's unbalanced and biased comparison. He also brought us this gem of a comparison....the 550ix vs the m3.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=935992
Initial orders are going to be mostly loaded, $80k+ M4s, which I think is interesting in light of the close proximity of the 991 at that price point.


By using the word 'gem' in the context of your post, it would appear to a casual reader that you're making a derogatory remark. Maybe you can enlighten us as to why you feel the comparison between 550xi vs M3 is an invalid comparison? But you may want to do that in the appropriate thread.

Last edited by PawnStar; 01-23-2014 at 09:09 AM..
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