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      10-07-2013, 03:24 PM   #1
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M-Performance Suspension Alignment

There's a few other threads on this topic, but I can't find anything specific to this setup.

For reference, this is what the dealer is going on. Thoughts?

Front: -0.09 to -0.1 Camber
0.08 to 0.15 Toe
Rear: -2.0 to -1.8 Camber
0.12 to .018 Toe

I'm finding it hard to believe the front camber numbers and rear toe seems less than ideal.
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      10-07-2013, 04:30 PM   #2
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Isn't the stock camber up front like -0.7 stock if you have the Sport/M-sport suspension? If so, your alignment figures are off!
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      10-07-2013, 04:47 PM   #3
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What are you trying to accomplish on your alignment? What BMW recommends or what will be the most neutral handling?
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      10-07-2013, 07:33 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RSXDC5
Isn't the stock camber up front like -0.7 stock if you have the Sport/M-sport suspension? If so, your alignment figures are off!
Yeah that's about what I thought. I asked the SA what they set everything to when they did the install. He said to spec. When I asked what spec was thats what he gave me.

I'm kinda baffled really. I was expecting more negative up front due to the ride drop.
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      10-07-2013, 07:37 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMK007
What are you trying to accomplish on your alignment? What BMW recommends or what will be the most neutral handling?
Neutral with maybe a touch of understeer. Needs to be stable at high speed.
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      10-09-2013, 08:28 PM   #6
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So I think we really dorked it up today. We added some toe out to the front to try to counteract the lack of front camber. Now turn-in is a ton more difficult as it's trying hard to unwind. I think we took it to the extreme.

Where did we go wrong?

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      10-15-2013, 09:50 AM   #7
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First, your dealer's working from a broken spec - it's not
-0.09 to -0.1 deg of negative front camber - it's -0.9 to -0.1 degrees with -0.5 degrees being perfect. So your front camber is ~perfect

Second, you can't do anything to adjust the camber on the F30 aside from buying new parts (oem swivel bearing for + or - 0.5 deg, or an aftermarket camber plate). Adjusting ride hight with different springs will modify the camber a bit (lower will add more negative camber up to a point) but not much - seeing ~-0.6 with m-perf springs seems right on what I would expect.

Rear camber is adjustable, the target from the manual is -105' which is -1.75 degrees. With the M-Perf, they might want a little more. -1.9 in the back isn't out of line - it will cause the rear to stick a little more in a hard turn (I put my rears at -2.0)

On to toe - normally all BMW's have negative toe both in the front and back - it leads to high levels of straight line stability at high speeds (think autobahn) and in the front, a heavy German steering feel at the expense of tire wear. Also the rear toe should always be higher than the front toe for the sake of stability.

The F30's specs for total toe are 14' in the front and 18' in the back (that means 0.23 degrees in the front and 0.3 in the back - total toe)

Also, when you see toe without an "in" or "out" associated with it - we're talking about toe in (i.e. the front of the tires are pointed at each other - cross-eyed). Toe out (front of the tires pointed away from each other) is sometimes represented as toe with a negative value.

Now, on to your seat of the pants feel that you don't like. You'll have to explain "turn-in is a ton more difficult as it's trying hard to unwind". Do you mean the steering wheel requires more effort to turn it and it loads up more (gets even heavier) with higher steering angles than before? If so that doesn't make any sense from your before/after alignment sheets.

You've decreased total toe on the front axel - that should decrease straight line stability and work against the camber thrust which should make the steering feel lighter. The car should also change direction quicker.

Now, if you came from a stock suspension and jumped to an M-Perf suspension steering input is going to be heavier, by quite a bit. Reason being stock suspension has a front camber of -0.3, half that of your M-Perf - meaning the M-Perf suspension has twice the camber thrust of the stock suspension. If you don't like that and want the steering to be lighter, your alignment tech is doing the right thing by decreasing the front total toe. It can continue to be decreased to lighten the steering, even going past 0 toe into negative numbers (toe out) as less toe works against camber thrust, up to the point where camber thrust is negated by toe out and the wheel has no self-centering ability. I'm not suggesting this as the car would be approaching un-drivable at that point.

I run my front with a slightly toe out configuration (i.e. past 0 toe, the fronts of the wheels are no longer pointing towards each other, but away from each other). This aids in the car's ability to quickly change direction (i.e. works well in the slalom) but sacrifices high-speed stability (i.e. car has more of a tendency to wander on the freeway).

So, in conclusion, I see no problem with the current alignment on the car - it looks mostly normal with a little less front and rear toe than manufacturer spec.
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      10-18-2013, 09:54 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by utenigma View Post
First, your dealer's working from a broken spec - it's not
-0.09 to -0.1 deg of negative front camber - it's -0.9 to -0.1 degrees with -0.5 degrees being perfect. So your front camber is ~perfect

Second, you can't do anything to adjust the camber on the F30 aside from buying new parts (oem swivel bearing for + or - 0.5 deg, or an aftermarket camber plate). Adjusting ride hight with different springs will modify the camber a bit (lower will add more negative camber up to a point) but not much - seeing ~-0.6 with m-perf springs seems right on what I would expect.

Rear camber is adjustable, the target from the manual is -105' which is -1.75 degrees. With the M-Perf, they might want a little more. -1.9 in the back isn't out of line - it will cause the rear to stick a little more in a hard turn (I put my rears at -2.0)

On to toe - normally all BMW's have negative toe both in the front and back - it leads to high levels of straight line stability at high speeds (think autobahn) and in the front, a heavy German steering feel at the expense of tire wear. Also the rear toe should always be higher than the front toe for the sake of stability.

The F30's specs for total toe are 14' in the front and 18' in the back (that means 0.23 degrees in the front and 0.3 in the back - total toe)

Also, when you see toe without an "in" or "out" associated with it - we're talking about toe in (i.e. the front of the tires are pointed at each other - cross-eyed). Toe out (front of the tires pointed away from each other) is sometimes represented as toe with a negative value.

Now, on to your seat of the pants feel that you don't like. You'll have to explain "turn-in is a ton more difficult as it's trying hard to unwind". Do you mean the steering wheel requires more effort to turn it and it loads up more (gets even heavier) with higher steering angles than before? If so that doesn't make any sense from your before/after alignment sheets.

You've decreased total toe on the front axel - that should decrease straight line stability and work against the camber thrust which should make the steering feel lighter. The car should also change direction quicker.

Now, if you came from a stock suspension and jumped to an M-Perf suspension steering input is going to be heavier, by quite a bit. Reason being stock suspension has a front camber of -0.3, half that of your M-Perf - meaning the M-Perf suspension has twice the camber thrust of the stock suspension. If you don't like that and want the steering to be lighter, your alignment tech is doing the right thing by decreasing the front total toe. It can continue to be decreased to lighten the steering, even going past 0 toe into negative numbers (toe out) as less toe works against camber thrust, up to the point where camber thrust is negated by toe out and the wheel has no self-centering ability. I'm not suggesting this as the car would be approaching un-drivable at that point.

I run my front with a slightly toe out configuration (i.e. past 0 toe, the fronts of the wheels are no longer pointing towards each other, but away from each other). This aids in the car's ability to quickly change direction (i.e. works well in the slalom) but sacrifices high-speed stability (i.e. car has more of a tendency to wander on the freeway).

So, in conclusion, I see no problem with the current alignment on the car - it looks mostly normal with a little less front and rear toe than manufacturer spec.
Thanks for the info. Your conclusion was pretty much our goal. I told them the outer front tires ran really hot relative to the fronts. They suggested to adjust the toe a little. So we did. This past weekend tire temps measured pretty much even across the width. Was it the toe adjustment? :shrug:

I think I've gotten use to it now, but initially it felt as if it was trying harder to center, which seems to be opposite what you are suggesting I should feel. I'm cool with the new normal so long as there is isn't anything totally out of whack that will kill the tires and/or cause instability at high speed. No harm no foul.
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      01-20-2014, 04:22 PM   #9
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Sorry to bump this thread, but I'm curious as to whether anyone has played around with alignment specs to make the car handle better/give better straight line stability. Mine seems to have some left/right wobble at freeway speeds.
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      07-07-2015, 08:56 PM   #10
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[ATTACH][ATTACH]Attachment 1240456[/ATTACH][/ATTACH]
Quote:
Originally Posted by utenigma View Post
First, your dealer's working from a broken spec - it's not
-0.09 to -0.1 deg of negative front camber - it's -0.9 to -0.1 degrees with -0.5 degrees being perfect. So your front camber is ~perfect

Second, you can't do anything to adjust the camber on the F30 aside from buying new parts (oem swivel bearing for + or - 0.5 deg, or an aftermarket camber plate). Adjusting ride hight with different springs will modify the camber a bit (lower will add more negative camber up to a point) but not much - seeing ~-0.6 with m-perf springs seems right on what I would expect.

Rear camber is adjustable, the target from the manual is -105' which is -1.75 degrees. With the M-Perf, they might want a little more. -1.9 in the back isn't out of line - it will cause the rear to stick a little....

I definitely need your assistance... My rear 20" Pirelli RFT wore twice as fast on the ouside. Rear Left was 4-7-8 AND REAR RIGHT 6.5-4-3 32nds.

Am attaching the alignment sheet. First one was one year ago. Second one was just recently, and the third one today. Wa snot satisfied with the decrease in negative camber and had them redo it.

Strangely, they insisted that on the 335i XDrive M Performance they can go REAR LEFT 1.7deg but REAR RIGHT 1.3 Max, which allows for a .5 deg (or 30 minutes) difference between left and right.

The reason it cannot go more than 1.3 on the rear right is as they turn the adjusting stock screw, past 1.3 it goes into positive. It seems a vehicle specific feature and a spec sheet from BMW did indicate the difference. In theory I can upgrade the camber gizmo and go past 1.3 rear right- provided I keep up increasing the rear Left.

Does this make any sense to anyone?

The picture with the red left and right is last summer. Second pic the alignment just completed.

As is, today the car's handling felt superior even on a wet road.


regards
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File Type: pdf Doc - Jul 6, 2015, 16-20.pdf (1.04 MB, 589 views)
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      11-21-2015, 05:17 AM   #11
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My Sport Suspension - NOT M Performance Suspension

Quote:
Originally Posted by utenigma View Post
First, your dealer's working from a broken spec - it's not
-0.09 to -0.1 deg of negative front camber - it's -0.9 to -0.1 degrees with -0.5 degrees being perfect. So your front camber is ~perfect

Second, you can't do anything to adjust the camber on the F30 aside from buying new parts (oem swivel bearing for + or - 0.5 deg, or an aftermarket camber plate). Adjusting ride hight with different springs will modify the camber a bit (lower will add more negative camber up to a point) but not much - seeing ~-0.6 with m-perf springs seems right on what I would expect.

Rear camber is adjustable, the target from the manual is -105' which is -1.75 degrees. With the M-Perf, they might want a little more. -1.9 in the back isn't out of line - it will cause the rear to stick a little more in a hard turn (I put my rears at -2.0)

On to toe - normally all BMW's have negative toe both in the front and back - it leads to high levels of straight line stability at high speeds (think autobahn) and in the front, a heavy German steering feel at the expense of tire wear. Also the rear toe should always be higher than the front toe for the sake of stability.

The F30's specs for total toe are 14' in the front and 18' in the back (that means 0.23 degrees in the front and 0.3 in the back - total toe)

Also, when you see toe without an "in" or "out" associated with it - we're talking about toe in (i.e. the front of the tires are pointed at each other - cross-eyed). Toe out (front of the tires pointed away from each other) is sometimes represented as toe with a negative value.

Now, on to your seat of the pants feel that you don't like. You'll have to explain "turn-in is a ton more difficult as it's trying hard to unwind". Do you mean the steering wheel requires more effort to turn it and it loads up more (gets even heavier) with higher steering angles than before? If so that doesn't make any sense from your before/after alignment sheets.

You've decreased total toe on the front axel - that should decrease straight line stability and work against the camber thrust which should make the steering feel lighter. The car should also change direction quicker.

Now, if you came from a stock suspension and jumped to an M-Perf suspension steering input is going to be heavier, by quite a bit. Reason being stock suspension has a front camber of -0.3, half that of your M-Perf - meaning the M-Perf suspension has twice the camber thrust of the stock suspension. If you don't like that and want the steering to be lighter, your alignment tech is doing the right thing by decreasing the front total toe. It can continue to be decreased to lighten the steering, even going past 0 toe into negative numbers (toe out) as less toe works against camber thrust, up to the point where camber thrust is negated by toe out and the wheel has no self-centering ability. I'm not suggesting this as the car would be approaching un-drivable at that point.

I run my front with a slightly toe out configuration (i.e. past 0 toe, the fronts of the wheels are no longer pointing towards each other, but away from each other). This aids in the car's ability to quickly change direction (i.e. works well in the slalom) but sacrifices high-speed stability (i.e. car has more of a tendency to wander on the freeway).

So, in conclusion, I see no problem with the current alignment on the car - it looks mostly normal with a little less front and rear toe than manufacturer spec.
+1. I just wanted post my alignment experience from yesterday... One thing that I did was measure the camber with the car loaded correctly with weights and without.

Car: 2014 BMW F30 335i RWD M Sport (Sport Suspension) - No modifications.

I had my alignment done at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds Auto Skills Center. They have a Hunter alignment machine and the price of an alignment is $60. (My guess is a BMW dealer would charge between $200-300 for an alignment). I will say that maintaining BMWs is incredibly expensive IF you don't have access to facilities with the right tools and equipment.

Notes:
If your car has "AFS", you will need an OEM scan tool (Autologic?). If you don't have "AFS", you're good to go.



Not entirely sure about the "DSC" part of this. I think you can disregard it for a standard alignment.


Prep work:

You'll need to properly weigh down the car. I ended up going to my unit's gym and having the full time guys hand receipt me a bunch of plates and dumbells. It's a LOT of weight and you will need this to get the rear camber correct. (You'll see the effect of an unloaded car later).


And now to the official specs:


My front right toe and rear left toe were off. Here is my final alignment spec with the car loaded correctly and full tank of gas:


Here is my final alignment spec with the car UNloaded correctly and full tank of gas. Notice the significant change in rear camber. I ended up taking the readings unweighted because this will be more convenient in the future given the exact same suspension setup.



Here are some other photos...

This is the front tie rod adjustment. You basically need to rotate the tie rod until you get the correct toe. The torq bolt is to secure the tie rod in place.


Here's how to adjust the rear toe. There seem to be two eccentric bolts. One for each arm (upper and lower). Notice in the diagram that the braket has a hole around in it. This implies you are adjusting the upper arm. On the rear side of the bolt, it's a standard 6 side bolt. On the other side (towards front of car), the bolt is actually a "star" similar to a torx but you'll need a socket not a torx bit.


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      08-10-2016, 09:06 PM   #12
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F30 335i xDrive M Performance Alignment

Most recent alignment on the xDrive M Performance, with some conclusions. Car was loaded with 600lbs and a full tank of gas.

- F30 frame xDrive works best with -1.6 to -1.8 rear camber, 19/20" wheels.
- Toe best more positive, -0.12 vs -0.2. I could feel immediately the better response of the car.
- Loading is critical to do the adjustments.
- New, touch free machines e.g. Hutchinson's are best.
- BMW shops may or may not know how to adjust M Performances. The equipment quality and staff experience matters a lot. My 2014 alignment, at -0.8 deg, will never happen again.

A year running -1.6 in the rear, the Pirelli RFTs handle very well. These figures change should you lower the suspension. The TV screen shows the pre-adjustment figures, under heavy load. Note, my prev negative camber (-1.7/-1.3 held pretty well). Once they readjusted and removed the weights, it all became -1.6 and -1.65. The more positive toe will reduce some of the understeer, and move the rear tire wear from outer to center.

Leaving the garage, felt immediately the difference when cornering, in Sport and Sport+.

Final report is attached as a PDF.
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File Type: pdf 335i xDrive M Performance Alignment.pdf (539.4 KB, 837 views)
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      05-12-2018, 03:40 PM   #13
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Some great info here.

I have an F31, with OEM 19” wheels with the M Sport suspension all stock.

What’s the best alignment mainly on the rear, my inner edges have worn more than the rest of the tyre, there Conti RFT.

I want to take the car to be Hunter Alignmend next week, and I want to tell them the settings.

Thanks!
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      05-14-2018, 09:08 AM   #14
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Here is my factory alignment read out. The shop did change the rear slightly toe and camber. My understanding is there isn't a lot of adjustment on the front that can be done.
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      06-07-2018, 08:50 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by utenigma View Post
First, your dealer's working from a broken spec - it's not
-0.09 to -0.1 deg of negative front camber - it's -0.9 to -0.1 degrees with -0.5 degrees being perfect. So your front camber is ~perfect

Second, you can't do anything to adjust the camber on the F30 aside from buying new parts (oem swivel bearing for + or - 0.5 deg, or an aftermarket camber plate). Adjusting ride hight with different springs will modify the camber a bit (lower will add more negative camber up to a point) but not much - seeing ~-0.6 with m-perf springs seems right on what I would expect.
.
Expertise question for you. In a prev, older post, I had -0.6 / -0.6 front camber. Somehow, that became -0.9/-0.6 and -1.1/-0.6 over these years. No idea, as have not hit anything- well maybe an unmarked repair roar asphalt, cut-out, so let's say the front left was -0.9. Yet... it increased?

The expertise question, is this a subframe issue I should look into, or swivel bearing one as you mentioned?

Attached my last alignment, today.

regards
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      10-19-2018, 10:44 AM   #16
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UPDATE: after getting clonking noises from under at low speed, esp left side, took it in. Sure enough struts were done, left upper particularly bad. Car traces like a laser and feels rock solid. Am wondering if this did not affect it most of the last year, when went from 70,000 to 92,000 kms.
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      02-12-2023, 04:53 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Musashi View Post
UPDATE: after getting clonking noises from under at low speed, esp left side, took it in. Sure enough struts were done, left upper particularly bad. Car traces like a laser and feels rock solid. Am wondering if this did not affect it most of the last year, when went from 70,000 to 92,000 kms.
How was your experience with Style 361 + M Performance Suspension?
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      07-10-2023, 10:00 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enel View Post
How was your experience with Style 361 + M Performance Suspension?
It was great but tires were hard to find I. That staggered. I upgraded to 19” rays in 2017, carbon ceramic from brakes. Saving 50 lbs unsprung mass and have permanent front rotors that will last 1,000,000 Kms.

In 19” i run 225/40r19 255/35r19 and vary with 235/40r19 and can do 265/35r19 anytime. Better cushioned ride..
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      07-27-2023, 11:39 PM   #19
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I would say f30 with just -1.0 more camber on front makes a huge difference in response and grip. Camber kit is worth investing if you track it or like back roads. I love my -2.0 front and -1.5 R setup, millway camber kit.
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