[wisco]

2007 335I 62K, and own a BT cable. For the last 6 weeks I have had progressively longer cranking times after the car sits for 4 hours or more. It's now consistently cranking for 5-8 seconds after an overnight sit. With the longer crank came a moderate rough idle. I also have a developing slight to moderate wastegate rattle. In March I had codes 3100 and 30FE, overboost related, but I tested, found bad and replaced a wastegate solenoid / pressure converter which took care of that. No other codes since in any of the modules, even with the long cranks, WG rattle and rough idle. I dropped the car off at the dealer yesterday for them to check on the warranty issues- HPFP and wastegate caused turbo failure extended warranty. Knowing the rules and fully expecting the turbo warranty to be denied because of only a slight wastegate rattle I left the JB4 installed.

The advisor calls me today and confirms that the turbo(s) need replacement - they were able to verify the wastegate rattle, however they were not able to verify the long crank in the morning after an overnight in the parking lot.

Result
Turbos / wastegate: They are denying the warranty claim for the turbos because they found a tune installed (JB4). HPFP: With no codes and no verifiable long crank they are not able to submit this for warranty. They believe my injectors are bad and because none of the items thus far are 'warranty-able', I currently owe them their standard diagnostic fee ($130 I'm guessing). Further, they requested approval for an additional undisclosed fee to remove the intake manifold and inspect for carbon build up (on top of the valves I'm suspecting??). I turned down the request and asked for the service manager, mainly to discuss the HPFP.

The service manager comes on the line and immediately starts discussing the turbo warranty denial. He tells me "If you want to pursue the turbo warranty further, we could, however I would have to submit pictures of the JB4 to BMW NA as part of my process". I told him my main concern is the HPFP, and I could not understand how after 2 months of daily long cranks that they weren't able to replicate it. We agreed that I should come in tomorrow at 830am so they can show me that the vehicle does not have a long crank after an overnight sit. So that's where we left it.

I am 99% sure that when they started the vehicle this morning they had at least a 5-8 second crank before it sputtered to life. It's been consistent every single morning and every single time it has sat for 4+ hours. That's the part that really irritates me. Why would they lie to me? As far as the JB4, I know I took a huge but calculated risk leaving it in, being almost certain that the turbos are just fine- no siren, no smoke, no noise and adequate power. I was fully expecting the turbo claim to get denied because the only issue there is a slight - moderate WG rattle which just appeared in the last 1000 miles. Did not expect them to go digging around for a tune. Either way I can't help but feel that they will make me look like more of a fool tomorrow by priming the fueling system before I get there tomorrow so they can prove to me that my long cranks are imaginary.

[Kalidian]

Not to assume the worst or apply generalities but I think, especially when dealing with potential warranty claims on expensive parts like turbos, one of the first things they'll do is check for mods and tunes to find a reason to deny it.

[litxus]

Wow, you took quite a risk with JB4 in the car. Depending on the dealer now they can try to say that due to JB4 no warranty on HPFP as the car is tuned and puts "extreme" stress on the part. You took the risk and therefore not sure how it will turn out, but someone else here mentioned that they took the car with JB4 to the dealer and they did warranty work (turbos I think) even though they found JB4. If I recall correctly SA asked which map it was on or something like that. Either way, best of luck as there is no way to tell if turbos would of lasted that much longer running stock.

[glachhman]

Can you demod and take it to another dealer?

[wisco]

Originally Posted by glachhman

Can you demod and take it to another dealer?

Good question and I don't know. Not sure if BMW and the dealers share the same database. Honestly I don't race my car and most times actually run the stock map which I find to produce better mileage (+2mpg) anyway in mild mannered driving and on long distance trips.

[SharkBait]

I don't get it. You left your mods on the car and expect them to simply change out the HPFP and just ignore the JB4? Doesn't JB4 push just about everything on the engine harder including the HPFP? I think they are completely within their rights to tell you you're SOL. Sounds like they've being reasonable so far.

[MGT81]

I dunno. Sounds like bs to me. The long crank is symptom of the hpfp for sure. That being said, it would have been prudent to remove the jb4. I had my boost pressure converters replaced as well, under warranty.

[deluxe 247]

When I had issues with a dealer denying warranty i just drove 15 minutes to next one and got it done, then again I live in so cal wheres there's a bmw dealer everywhere

[wisco]

Originally Posted by SharkBait

I don't get it. You left your mods on the car and expect them to simply change out the HPFP and just ignore the JB4? .

Maybe so but if I'm not mistaken the tune doesn't effect the HPFP warranty. The same dealer replaced the HPFP 8k ago with no mention of the JB4.

[ken1137]

They cannot deny your warranty. I am fairly certain the majority of owners who had turbos fail did not have tunes, which is why the law suit arose in addition to the new turbo/wastegate warranty. Remember, the Mag-Moss Act clearly states the mfg cannot deny competition, or warranties. They have to prove your tune caused the failure. It is LAW, they have to prove it, not you. So, ask them about the Mag-Moss Act and then ask them if they would deny warranty claims if someone has the BMW PPK1 or PPK2 ? I think it's time to hire a lawyer that handles consumer warranty claims, contact your States Attorney General and be certain the Service Supervisor is aware of this fact. Contact BMWNA also and let them know of your intentions. BMWs dealers do their best to turn you away and I believe it is a cost cutting measure Corporate wide.

Listen, if we (consumers) keep accepting their BS then they will continue to get away with this BS. GL

[surfcity335i]

Originally Posted by MGT81

The long crank is symptom of the hpfp for sure.

Don't be so quick. A leaky fuel injector has been known to cause a long crank in many a 3'er.

[SharkBait]

Originally Posted by ken1137

They cannot deny your warranty. I am fairly certain the majority of owners who had turbos fail did not have tunes, which is why the law suit arose in addition to the new turbo/wastegate warranty. Remember, the Mag-Moss Act clearly states the mfg cannot deny competition, or warranties. They have to prove your tune caused the failure. It is LAW, they have to prove it, not you. So, ask them about the Mag-Moss Act and then ask them if they would deny warranty claims if someone has the BMW PPK1 or PPK2 ? I think it's time to hire a lawyer that handles consumer warranty claims, contact your States Attorney General and be certain the Service Supervisor is aware of this fact. Contact BMWNA also and let them know of your intentions. BMWs dealers do their best to turn you away and I believe it is a cost cutting measure Corporate wide.

Listen, if we (consumers) keep accepting their BS then they will continue to get away with this BS. GL

I don't see how this could be true. Why would everyone else pull off their DPs, tunes, and other bolt ons prior to going to the dealer if the burden of proof was on the dealer to prove that a mod was the root cause. If what you say is true, we could all rock up FBO and say "prove it or fix it". It's not easy to prove cause and effect especially when you're talking about software.

And the reality is good tunes run the engine and components harder and potentially beyond their design limits. And a bad tune can grenade an engine pretty quickly. So I actually think it makes sense for the dealer to deny warranty service for modded engines. You're pushing it beyond it's intended limit and therefore the risk is yours.

[Das_Stig]

Originally Posted by SharkBait

I don't see how this could be true. Why would everyone else pull off their DPs, tunes, and other bolt ons prior to going to the dealer if the burden of proof was on the dealer to prove that a mod was the root cause. If what you say is true, we could all rock up FBO and say "prove it or fix it". It's not easy to prove cause and effect especially when you're talking about software.

And the reality is good tunes run the engine and components harder and potentially beyond their design limits. And a bad tune can grenade an engine pretty quickly.

if it is true, i'm sure people remove to avoid the hassles associated with arguing. the fact that a law exists is something. its not like corporations want to do free work. they always gonna argue against it, if they can.

i've had an issue with my local, perillo. tried to deny a problem existed when one of my adaptive headlights motor went out. literally had to argue with them in front of everyone. "why does one move on start up and not the other?" response: "because its already in place it doesn't need to move."
... had to bring it in 3 times for them to get it done.. don't know if they tried to stall because my original warranty was going out in a week, but shadiness.

to the OP, under the hood work don't take a risk. if doesn't work out hit another dealer after taking the tune out. hopefully they didn't put your tune in the database.

[Kayani_1]

I am sorry but it was very care less of u to leave a JB4 tune installed when getting warranty work done at the BMW dealership. Why take the risk?.....common sense dictates NO.......Why would you do some thing like that?

I had JB4 for a year and every time car went in for service I took it out. The hassle of constantly removing things in engine bay to get to DME and then afterwards doing the same to install it back got old real fast for me. Despite the hassle I would have never left a JB4 in my car when I took it to the dealer.

Also, the hassle of working in engine bay and pulling things apart to get to DME all the time forced me to move away from JB4 and towards Cobb.The ease of install and uninstall without ever touching the engine bay and comfortably sitting in car or inside the house takes the hassle out of going to dealerships for frequent services.

[wisco]

Originally Posted by Das_Stig

hopefully they didn't put your tune in the database.

Can anyone verify that a database actually exists and if so have a specific example of a situation?

Diagnostic fee and the non existent long crank are all suspect to me.

Also, last year when I was 1000 miles out of warranty and had the car in for the factory mandated software update, this same dealer wanted to charge me $600 to replace the corrupted bluetooth module as it prohibited all the modules from updating. Ended up splitting the cost of the module with BMWNA but it still cost me $300. I thought it was a waste considering I have no use for the factory bluetooth phone system, but that's another issue - and topic. I'm now dreading the thought of sitting in the service dept at 830a tomorrow.

[ken1137]

Originally Posted by SharkBait

I don't see how this could be true. Why would everyone else pull off their DPs, tunes, and other bolt ons prior to going to the dealer if the burden of proof was on the dealer to prove that a mod was the root cause. If what you say is true, we could all rock up FBO and say "prove it or fix it". It's not easy to prove cause and effect especially when you're talking about software.

And the reality is good tunes run the engine and components harder and potentially beyond their design limits. And a bad tune can grenade an engine pretty quickly. So I actually think it makes sense for the dealer to deny warranty service for modded engines. You're pushing it beyond it's intended limit and therefore the risk is yours.

Believe what you want but we all should be familiar with the Magnuson-Moss Act and the FTC report (2011) if you mod. "A bad tune can grenade an engine" ?!?!? So, tell us all what tune will grenade your engine.

warranty_ftc.pdf

BTW...feel free to walk away from the SA when they deny your warranty work. You'll be leaving $$$ on the table. I would rather fight for my rights as a consumer.

[chromisdesigns]

BMW has deeper pockets and more lawyers than you do.

Sure, MM act is supposed to protect you. But you likely have to go to court to get the protection. Cut off your own nose, if you like, but it seems simpler just to take out the tunes before you go to a dealer.

Not worth the hassle the other way, IMHO.

I recall reading recently that civil suits now take several years to get a court date in California, due to court budget cutbacks. Lotsa luck pursuing a warranty claim in this kind of environment.

[wisco]

Well when it comes to the extended turbo/wastegate warranty I'm well aware that within the court order it states that any aftermarket installed components will void the warranty. If I thought I had a turbo problem I would have pulled the harness. I'm really not too concerned about the turbos. Anyway I'm getting off track. From the PDF that was posted I feel as though their specific reference to "aftermarket" parts really is meant to refer to aftermarket belts, pulleys, etc etc... Not performance parts.

[alexwhittemore]

Originally Posted by ken1137

Believe what you want but we all should be familiar with the Magnuson-Moss Act and the FTC report (2011) if you mod. "A bad tune can grenade an engine" ?!?!? So, tell us all what tune will grenade your engine.

Attachment 862974

BTW...feel free to walk away from the SA when they deny your warranty work. You'll be leaving $$$ on the table. I would rather fight for my rights as a consumer.

A 500hp shot of NOS in my N51 jumps to mind as an obvious winner. Sure, I can put nitrous in this car and expect it to survive, but past some limit you can only expect to be blowing pistons out your hood like little missiles.

The burdon of proof is on them to deny a warranty claim, but any reasonable jury wouldn't take much convincing that a performance tune runs your engine harder.

That said, these issues pop up almost universally tune or not, proving a deficient design. In which case, that you have a jb4 shouldn't matter, since one can expect this would have popped up sooner or later and been covered by the extended 8y warranty for this one issue (I think 8y is right, yeah?).

My question is, what inclination does a dealer have to be meticulous about denials? It's not money out of their pocket, it's money out of BMW NA. Usually dealers are really happy to cover any issue they can if it's under warranty, because it means they please you with free repairs (and maybe get repeat business), yet also collect money for the work from BMW NA.

Maybe they get audited sometimes to make sure they're not making claims up?

[Das_Stig]

they definitely get monitored on how many claims they file. noticed some dealers are more likely to do work than others too.

about OPs bluetooth module, them covering half when you were out of warranty seems pretty generous in itself too.

[wisco]

Maybe they get audited sometimes to make sure they're not making claims up?

Is there a secret shopper effect at different dealers?

Is there a tech or tuner out there that thinks the long crank may be injector related?

[dreamspeed]

The MM act does protect you but its really a case of not having to go through the trouble if you don't have to.