engine braking? yay or nay?

cholewski · 02-19-2009, 06:31 PM

here's another question i'm curious to get everyone's input on (lets try to stay alittle more on-topic for this thread). Engine braking - do you do it, why or why not? I've been driving manual since day 1, and I've always used engine braking to help slow my car down. I've always figured it's not hurting my engine to rev up alittle, and i'm making my brakes last longer. My only concern is that I'm eating up my clutch faster, and a clutch is alot more expensive to replace than brake pads.

So i guess this is really a 2 part question.

1. While racing (autoX/track meets, etc) do you engine brake?

2. While daily driving, do you engine brake?

Caduceus · 02-19-2009, 07:45 PM

I regularly drive a route which involves a 5km downhill stretch at up to 10% gradient. The speed limit is 60kph and it is heavily enforced by the police.

Most drivers I see will ride the brakes the whole way down the hill. Idiots IMHO. I suspect nearly all of them are driving autos and have probably never had the car out of "D" their whole life.

I put the car in 3rd gear (6MT) and mostly it will hold 60 without the need to touch the brakes. In my wife's Lexus which is an auto, it requires 2nd gear to hold 60 on this hill. Neither car uses any fuel while doing this and it saves brake wear. More importantly, it allows better vehicle control and stops the unsafe practice of overheating the brakes.

Billj747 · 02-19-2009, 07:54 PM

Modern cars do not require engine braking. Brake technology has come a long way since the 50's and 60's.

Exiting offramps, I sometimes row through the gears and use the engine compression (decel) to slow the car down a bit, it dosn't hurt the car.

When you are tracking your car, proper heel-toe-downshifts are important to not over-rev your car, not cause the rear tires to lock up, and upset the balance of the car. But in terms of slowing the car down on a track, use the brakes to slow the car down.

0.02

SpeedballTrix · 02-19-2009, 08:13 PM

I engine break constantly. All the way down from 6th to 1st (1st is tricky, sometimes I don't bother with it). I can come to a complete stop on most flat or reverse pitched roads without ever touching my brake pedal. Use the gears to get you down to like 800rpms in first which is maybe 5mph and then coast the rest out until you are down below 2mph (which takes all of maybe 15 feet) and then just gently pull the handbrake up one click (if even that much) to burn the last couple of mph then pull it all the way up once you are stopped to keep you stopped.

The biggest difference I see: When I wash my car there is at least 47 times less nasty brake dust all over the wheels =P
Also it makes me cooler than everyone else on the road

And saves break wear.
And makes me look cool.

Billj747 · 02-19-2009, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpeedballTrix

I engine break constantly. All the way down from 6th to 1st (1st is tricky, sometimes I don't bother with it). I can come to a complete stop on most flat or reverse pitched roads without ever touching my brake pedal. Use the gears to get you down to like 800rpms in first which is maybe 5mph and then coast the rest out until you are down below 2mph (which takes all of maybe 15 feet) and then just gently pull the handbrake up one click (if even that much) to burn the last couple of mph then pull it all the way up once you are stopped to keep you stopped.

The biggest difference I see: When I wash my car there is at least 47 times less nasty brake dust all over the wheels =P
Also it makes me cooler than everyone else on the road

And saves break wear.
And makes me look cool.

^ LOL

Alow · 02-19-2009, 08:56 PM

Never on the race track. Rarely on the street. The brakes are cheaper to replace than the transmission.

The only place I'd engine brake is if I am going down a long and steep road where constant application of the brakes can overheat them and become unresponsive.

cholewski · 02-19-2009, 09:08 PM

Thanks Alow, knew you'd be on this thread pretty quickly

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alow

Never on the race track. Rarely on the street. The brakes are cheaper to replace than the transmission.

The only place I'd engine brake is if I am going down a long and steep road where constant application of the brakes can overheat them and become unresponsive.

cholewski · 02-19-2009, 09:11 PM

hmm, i'm debating never engine braking again because of this guy...

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpeedballTrix

Also it makes me cooler than everyone else on the road

And saves break wear.
And makes me look cool.

neteagle · 02-19-2009, 09:40 PM

Engine braking (using compression to slow down) is not bad for the car. It does save on brakes. Using a combination of clutch and engine braking accelerates the wear on your clutch and I would not do it. Brakes are cheaper than clutches...

Use heel and toe downshifts to eliminate clutch wear and then use engine compression to slow down. I do it all the time...street and track.

Guildenstern · 02-19-2009, 10:05 PM

1) When I'm at the track (like that happens often)(Full discloseure I Track dayed my last car a bit, and did the Performance center thing but I am not a racecar driver nor do I play one on TV.) I usualy am on the Gas or the Brake. Engine braking seems like it would be too slow of a decelleration, I.E. time I could still be on gas untill I need to use the brakes. Course there is the times you just let off the gas for a second and that's technicaly engine breaking, but I don't shift with the intention of it helping me slow down. Don't know about Auto-X But I guess most people don't usualy get out of 2nd gear most of the time.

2) On the road I usualy Heel-Toe as I come to a stop so I am at high revs and the clutch is engaged, But I'm still on the brakes. Going down a big hill I'll Heel-Toe if I feel like I'll be on the brakes the whole way down. I know Fade is negligible and modern brakes work great and all, I just like shifting.

As long as the shift is smooth there should not be much damage to the clutch. I drove like this in my last car and it's clutch made it past 120,000 Mi. Course it was a dinky Golf, But I really am not kind to my cars. (reperesed anger issues

)

gtaday51 · 02-20-2009, 12:37 AM

I engine brake with the Step quite often. I'm not sure how much more difficult it is with a stick, but the extra reduction is stopping distance is noticable. And its just a quick flick of the paddles so its a bit of a win.

SpeedballTrix · 02-20-2009, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cholewski

hmm, i'm debating never engine braking again because of this guy...

I see you're not familiar with the concept of satire.

For the record: Proper engine braking does not damage your engine or transmission. To say it does is utter nonsense. You are not doing anything to either of these components that you don't do every day. You do not slip the clutch any more than you do normally shifting. There are no clutch packs in a manual transmission to overload like in a slushbox.
If you try to put it into 1st at 60 it will certainly blow your clutch up and over rev your engine, but you would also have to be a moron to try it.

Oh yeah, by the way multiposting is commonly seen as inappropriate behavior on public forums. Just an FYI. Normally I wouldn't point it out but since you decided to be a **** I figured Id jump on it.

cholewski · 02-21-2009, 08:28 AM

wow, jeez, alittle touchy? i'm fairly new to forums, this is the only forum i've every actually participated in, and i've only seriously been participating in this forum for about a month now. what exactly is so horrible about multiposting?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpeedballTrix

I see you're not familiar with the concept of satire.

For the record: Proper engine braking does not damage your engine or transmission. To say it does is utter nonsense. You are not doing anything to either of these components that you don't do every day. You do not slip the clutch any more than you do normally shifting. There are no clutch packs in a manual transmission to overload like in a slushbox.
If you try to put it into 1st at 60 it will certainly blow your clutch up and over rev your engine, but you would also have to be a moron to try it.

Oh yeah, by the way multiposting is commonly seen as inappropriate behavior on public forums. Just an FYI. Normally I wouldn't point it out but since you decided to be a **** I figured Id jump on it.

Citizen Z · 02-21-2009, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alow

Never on the race track. Rarely on the street. The brakes are cheaper to replace than the transmission.

The only place I'd engine brake is if I am going down a long and steep road where constant application of the brakes can overheat them and become unresponsive.

+1

Quote:

Originally Posted by cholewski

wow, jeez, alittle touchy? i'm fairly new to forums, this is the only forum i've every actually participated in, and i've only seriously been participating in this forum for about a month now. what exactly is so horrible about multiposting?

Its the forum equivalent to talking loudly on your cell phone in a restaurant. Not illegal, or necessarily wrong, just rude and churlish. And eventually somebody snaps and takes your cell phone and crushes it in front of you and walks away.

Heinzftw · 02-21-2009, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpeedballTrix

I engine break constantly. All the way down from 6th to 1st (1st is tricky, sometimes I don't bother with it). I can come to a complete stop on most flat or reverse pitched roads without ever touching my brake pedal. Use the gears to get you down to like 800rpms in first which is maybe 5mph and then coast the rest out until you are down below 2mph (which takes all of maybe 15 feet) and then just gently pull the handbrake up one click (if even that much) to burn the last couple of mph then pull it all the way up once you are stopped to keep you stopped.

The biggest difference I see: When I wash my car there is at least 47 times less nasty brake dust all over the wheels =P
Also it makes me cooler than everyone else on the road

And saves break wear.
And makes me look cool.

Don't EVER downshift to 1st gear. 2nd is lowest you want to go!

SpeedballTrix · 02-21-2009, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cholewski

wow, jeez, alittle touchy?

Considering you flat out insulted me, I don't consider my reaction exaggerated at all. As a matter of fact, Ill give you a piece of advice: The internet is a scary place. Since we are guaranteed anonymity people tend to take this as invincibility and will react very aggressively to any hostility.
Most people, when insulted like you insulted me, will flip the eff out on you. I try to be a little more civilized.
If you still wanna discuss this take it to PMs (private messages). Another thing considered inappropriate is having an e-fight in a public thread, even a thread you started.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heinzftw

Don't EVER downshift to 1st gear. 2nd is lowest you want to go!

Why's that?
First gear is the same as second. As a matter of fact most of the time first has more protection than second by way of additional synchronization. I'm not certain if the 135 tranny is, but at the very least it's just the same as second.
I've been using first to engine break my entire driving career and haven't damaged a tranny yet. I've even done it on my autos without dealing any damage. However that's something I would definitely not recommend =P

Citizen Z · 02-21-2009, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpeedballTrix

Why's that?
First gear is the same as second. As a matter of fact most of the time first has more protection than second by way of additional synchronization. I'm not certain if the 135 tranny is, but at the very least it's just the same as second.
I've been using first to engine break my entire driving career and haven't damaged a tranny yet. I've even done it on my autos without dealing any damage. However that's something I would definitely not recommend =P

Torque load. Downshifting into 1st puts a huge load on your drive line as the shock of going from a 2.40:1 to a 4.06:1 drive ratio puts a huge amount of stress on all your drive line components. You're doubling the torque shock, the difference from something like 50-200lbs torque to 100-600lbs, depending on your RPM. Its just not reasonable. Sure, your driveline is designed to absorb it, but why put it through the wear? Just slide it into first once you stop. 2nd gear provides perfectly tractable power all the way to almost idle, or around 14mph.

135i-Transmission
Manual gear ratios – I/II/III 4.06/2.40/1.58 :1
Manual gear ratios – IV/V/VI/R 1.19/1.00/0.87/3.68 :1
Manual gear ratios – Final drive ratio 3.08 :1
Source: BMWUSA Website
http://bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/V...fications.aspx
via
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showt...ion+gear+ratio

SpeedballTrix · 02-22-2009, 07:50 AM

Engine braking is all about putting load on your transmission.
I mean it could just as easily be called tranny breaking since you're using them both equally to distribute load.

Note that I said in my original reply that 1st gear is tricky and sometimes i don't even bother with it. But as I also said, there's nothing special about 1st gear that makes it more susceptible to torque load. It's the same metal, the same machining, you have to use precisely the same caution downshifting to first as any other gear, but in greater amount.

You're always putting load on your tranny when engine braking.
If you don't want to put any load on it, don't use it to brake.
As I said it keep my wheels significantly cleaner and drastically reduces brake wear and I've never had a problem with premature wear due to it, so in my mind it's a good value. Especially in a vehicle that's under warranty.

ianc · 03-10-2010, 12:34 AM

Engine braking does have the advantage of saving fuel since the injection goes into fuel cutoff on overrun.

However, it definitely causes more wear on your drivetrain than simply braking, as the trans and motor are subjected to unnecessary loads. All other things being equal, a driver who constantly uses his driveline to decelerate over the life of the car is going to suffer accelerated wear compared to one who does not.

Brakes are for slowing the car, the driveline is for accelerating it, and as another fellow said earlier: brakes are waaay cheaper than engines and transmissions.

But hey, it's your car; do what you like.

ianc

dread1 · 03-13-2010, 10:53 AM

def not the same everywhere.
In Ontario atleats they test you on downshifting/engine breaking when approaching a light for a drivers exam. They expect you to have the needed ratio engaged incase you need to move out of the way in a hurry.
Some politician still thinks its benificial.

02-19-2009, 06:31 PM	#1
cholewski Private 17 Rep 63 Posts Drives: 128i Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Montclair, NJ iTrader: (0)	engine braking? yay or nay? here's another question i'm curious to get everyone's input on (lets try to stay alittle more on-topic for this thread). Engine braking - do you do it, why or why not? I've been driving manual since day 1, and I've always used engine braking to help slow my car down. I've always figured it's not hurting my engine to rev up alittle, and i'm making my brakes last longer. My only concern is that I'm eating up my clutch faster, and a clutch is alot more expensive to replace than brake pads. So i guess this is really a 2 part question. 1. While racing (autoX/track meets, etc) do you engine brake? 2. While daily driving, do you engine brake? __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
	Appreciate 0 Tweet Quote

02-19-2009, 07:45 PM	#2
Caduceus First Lieutenant 342 Rep 396 Posts Drives: 2008 135 (sold), 2017 M2 Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Australia iTrader: (0)	I regularly drive a route which involves a 5km downhill stretch at up to 10% gradient. The speed limit is 60kph and it is heavily enforced by the police. Most drivers I see will ride the brakes the whole way down the hill. Idiots IMHO. I suspect nearly all of them are driving autos and have probably never had the car out of "D" their whole life. I put the car in 3rd gear (6MT) and mostly it will hold 60 without the need to touch the brakes. In my wife's Lexus which is an auto, it requires 2nd gear to hold 60 on this hill. Neither car uses any fuel while doing this and it saves brake wear. More importantly, it allows better vehicle control and stops the unsafe practice of overheating the brakes.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

02-19-2009, 07:54 PM	#3
Billj747 Captain 162 Rep 658 Posts Drives: Everything Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: SoFlo iTrader: (0)	Modern cars do not require engine braking. Brake technology has come a long way since the 50's and 60's. Exiting offramps, I sometimes row through the gears and use the engine compression (decel) to slow the car down a bit, it dosn't hurt the car. When you are tracking your car, proper heel-toe-downshifts are important to not over-rev your car, not cause the rear tires to lock up, and upset the balance of the car. But in terms of slowing the car down on a track, use the brakes to slow the car down. 0.02
	Appreciate 0 Quote

02-19-2009, 08:13 PM	#4
SpeedballTrix Second Lieutenant 3 Rep 242 Posts Drives: 2009 135i 6MT SBM/CBL; 2022 X5 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Long Island, NY iTrader: (0)	I engine break constantly. All the way down from 6th to 1st (1st is tricky, sometimes I don't bother with it). I can come to a complete stop on most flat or reverse pitched roads without ever touching my brake pedal. Use the gears to get you down to like 800rpms in first which is maybe 5mph and then coast the rest out until you are down below 2mph (which takes all of maybe 15 feet) and then just gently pull the handbrake up one click (if even that much) to burn the last couple of mph then pull it all the way up once you are stopped to keep you stopped. The biggest difference I see: When I wash my car there is at least 47 times less nasty brake dust all over the wheels =P Also it makes me cooler than everyone else on the road And saves break wear. And makes me look cool.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

02-19-2009, 08:56 PM	#6
Alow Lieutenant 38 Rep 456 Posts Drives: E82 128i, F36 430i GC Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Kansas City, MO iTrader: (3)	Never on the race track. Rarely on the street. The brakes are cheaper to replace than the transmission. The only place I'd engine brake is if I am going down a long and steep road where constant application of the brakes can overheat them and become unresponsive.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

02-19-2009, 09:40 PM	#9
neteagle Private First Class 1 Rep 149 Posts Drives: MBM 135i Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The ATL iTrader: (0)	Engine braking (using compression to slow down) is not bad for the car. It does save on brakes. Using a combination of clutch and engine braking accelerates the wear on your clutch and I would not do it. Brakes are cheaper than clutches... Use heel and toe downshifts to eliminate clutch wear and then use engine compression to slow down. I do it all the time...street and track. __________________ NetEagle '11 335i Le Mans Blue, Saddle, Dark Glacier, Manual, M-Sport, Premium, CA, Harman Kardon, Heated Seats, iPod, High Beam assist, 35% tint, Stone-X, BMW Performance Exhaust, Shadow Grill, CF competition spoiler
	Appreciate 0 Quote

02-19-2009, 10:05 PM	#10
Guildenstern or Rosencrantz 11 Rep 455 Posts Drives: 2008 Montego Blue 128i Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Cleveland, OH iTrader: (0) Garage List 2008 128i Coupe [0.00]	1) When I'm at the track (like that happens often)(Full discloseure I Track dayed my last car a bit, and did the Performance center thing but I am not a racecar driver nor do I play one on TV.) I usualy am on the Gas or the Brake. Engine braking seems like it would be too slow of a decelleration, I.E. time I could still be on gas untill I need to use the brakes. Course there is the times you just let off the gas for a second and that's technicaly engine breaking, but I don't shift with the intention of it helping me slow down. Don't know about Auto-X But I guess most people don't usualy get out of 2nd gear most of the time. 2) On the road I usualy Heel-Toe as I come to a stop so I am at high revs and the clutch is engaged, But I'm still on the brakes. Going down a big hill I'll Heel-Toe if I feel like I'll be on the brakes the whole way down. I know Fade is negligible and modern brakes work great and all, I just like shifting. As long as the shift is smooth there should not be much damage to the clutch. I drove like this in my last car and it's clutch made it past 120,000 Mi. Course it was a dinky Golf, But I really am not kind to my cars. (reperesed anger issues )
	Appreciate 0 Quote

02-20-2009, 12:37 AM	#11
gtaday51 gone but not forgotten 35 Rep 985 Posts Drives: gone 135 - Hello 1M! Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: The Big Apple iTrader: (0)	I engine brake with the Step quite often. I'm not sure how much more difficult it is with a stick, but the extra reduction is stopping distance is noticable. And its just a quick flick of the paddles so its a bit of a win. __________________ Our Lady of Blessed Acceleration don't fail me now.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

02-22-2009, 07:50 AM	#18
SpeedballTrix Second Lieutenant 3 Rep 242 Posts Drives: 2009 135i 6MT SBM/CBL; 2022 X5 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Long Island, NY iTrader: (0)	Engine braking is all about putting load on your transmission. I mean it could just as easily be called tranny breaking since you're using them both equally to distribute load. Note that I said in my original reply that 1st gear is tricky and sometimes i don't even bother with it. But as I also said, there's nothing special about 1st gear that makes it more susceptible to torque load. It's the same metal, the same machining, you have to use precisely the same caution downshifting to first as any other gear, but in greater amount. You're always putting load on your tranny when engine braking. If you don't want to put any load on it, don't use it to brake. As I said it keep my wheels significantly cleaner and drastically reduces brake wear and I've never had a problem with premature wear due to it, so in my mind it's a good value. Especially in a vehicle that's under warranty. Last edited by SpeedballTrix; 02-23-2009 at 04:22 PM..
	Appreciate 0 Quote

03-10-2010, 12:34 AM	#19
ianc Ex '87 Carrera 246 Rep 1,259 Posts Drives: '10 TiAg 6MT 135i Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Redwood Shores, California iTrader: (0)	Engine braking does have the advantage of saving fuel since the injection goes into fuel cutoff on overrun. However, it definitely causes more wear on your drivetrain than simply braking, as the trans and motor are subjected to unnecessary loads. All other things being equal, a driver who constantly uses his driveline to decelerate over the life of the car is going to suffer accelerated wear compared to one who does not. Brakes are for slowing the car, the driveline is for accelerating it, and as another fellow said earlier: brakes are waaay cheaper than engines and transmissions. But hey, it's your car; do what you like. ianc
	Appreciate 0 Quote

03-13-2010, 10:53 AM	#20
dread1 typos 9 Rep 219 Posts Drives: US spec 135i Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: oakville/toronto/whistler iTrader: (0)	def not the same everywhere. In Ontario atleats they test you on downshifting/engine breaking when approaching a light for a drivers exam. They expect you to have the needed ratio engaged incase you need to move out of the way in a hurry. Some politician still thinks its benificial.
	Appreciate 0 Quote