[harrington]

Since I will probably not be getting either for a few years my brother in law can not decide whether to get a 335i or 335xi. He is getting the sport package no matter what model with 18" summer tires. He will be running 17" snow tires in the winter. We do get a bunch of snow and he is leaning toward all wheel drive but was wondering if a 335i with dedicated winter tires would be suffice. It seems to me that the 335xi sits up a bit higher and I have heard the suspension feels a little different. I have only test drove a 335xi so I am not much help. He is planning on ordering next week and can't make up his mind. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[canucklion]

it should. We get tonnes of snow in TO as well (pretty much the same as Buffalo), RWD with dedicated snow tires does fine in snow as long as you use common sense and logic, i.e. don't go all fast and furious driving in the snow.

Originally Posted by harrington

if a 335i with dedicated winter tires would be suffice.

[Kilgore Trout]

AWD is sort of an urban myth. It does not improve handlng (under ordinary circumstances) in snow/ice nor does it improve stopping. It does make a difference in starting under slippery conditions though. So, if you had a long snowy driveway to climb, and there would be stopping and starting, the AWD vehicle would definitely win.

IMO, in light snow, snow tires are going to be just as useful.

And, in ordinary driving, AWD is going to cost you acceleration (heavier), MPG, and it will likely have some additional upkeep costs. If you believe Consumer Reports and other sources, the xDrive bimmers are slightly less reliable than the RWD vehicles.

The caveat to all of this is I'm making statements based on published tests of conventional AWD systems. I really don't know if torque vectoring systems (like Acura and the X6) will make a big difference.

[E90ice]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

AWD is sort of an urban myth. It does not improve handlng (under ordinary circumstances) in snow/ice nor does it improve stopping. It does make a difference in starting under slippery conditions though. So, if you had a long snowy driveway to climb, and there would be stopping and starting, the AWD vehicle would definitely win.

IMO, in light snow, snow tires are going to be just as useful.

And, in ordinary driving, AWD is going to cost you acceleration (heavier), MPG, and it will likely have some additional upkeep costs. If you believe Consumer Reports and other sources, the xDrive bimmers are slightly less reliable than the RWD vehicles.

The caveat to all of this is I'm making statements based on published tests of conventional AWD systems. I really don't know if torque vectoring systems (like Acura and the X6) will make a big difference.

Clearly, you have no idea what you are talking about and I'm going to leave it at that.

I have owned both cars.

OP, unless you are tracking the cars, you not feel a huge difference between the two platforms, however the "XI" does feel different than the "I" and it's softer suspension (even with sport package) and slightly higher ride does make the car corner differently. So the "I" feels better, more planted. If you are willing to spend 2k on coilovers for the "XI" then you are golden.

In the snow or wet, unlike some of the "I" fans think, THERE IS NO COMPARISON. The "XI" will win in every situation even if you have crappy tires on and who even wants to argue with that can drive up to Seattle and lets take it for a test up in the mountains in the snow or in the rain.

TEST DRIVE both cars and see what you think. If ultimate handling is your goal and you don't care about weather the go for the "I". If you are willing to spend 2k on coilovers and feel secure 365 days a year in every situation, then go for the "XI".

[canucklion]

no need to demean the other poster.

Originally Posted by E90ice

Clearly, you have no idea what you are talking about and I'm going to leave it at that.

No one is arguing AWD's benefits in slippery/wet conditions. Clearly AWD has the advantage in these slippery conditions. What I and Kilgore Trout were saying was simply that when equipped with capable snow tires, RWD does fine (read: we didn't say better than AWD) in the snow.

Originally Posted by E90ice

In the snow or wet, unlike some of the "I" fans think, THERE IS NO COMPARISON. The "XI" will win in every situation even if you have crappy tires on and who even wants to argue with that can drive up to Seattle and lets take it for a test up in the mountains in the snow or in the rain.

[Advskier]

Kilgore,

I don't see where you can say that awd is an urban myth, and doesn't make a difference in snow and ice.
I drive in snow and ice all winter, and there are days where I can barely make it up my street, even in my X3. I wouldn't want to even attempt it in my M3 even if it had snow tires.
Driving into deep snow (i.e. from the freeway to the offramp that hasn't been cleared) is way less scary in an awd car than rwd, snow tires or not. You see rwd drives spin out of control every storm we have here, while awd cars plow right on by, assuming the out of control car doesn't take them out too.

[Deda]

Originally Posted by E90ice

Clearly, you have no idea what you are talking about and I'm going to leave it at that.

I have owned both cars.

OP, unless you are tracking the cars, you not feel a huge difference between the two platforms, however the "XI" does feel different than the "I" and it's softer suspension (even with sport package) and slightly higher ride does make the car corner differently. So the "I" feels better, more planted. If you are willing to spend 2k on coilovers for the "XI" then you are golden.

In the snow or wet, unlike some of the "I" fans think, THERE IS NO COMPARISON. The "XI" will win in every situation even if you have crappy tires on and who even wants to argue with that can drive up to Seattle and lets take it for a test up in the mountains in the snow or in the rain.

TEST DRIVE both cars and see what you think. If ultimate handling is your goal and you don't care about weather the go for the "I". If you are willing to spend 2k on coilovers and feel secure 365 days a year in every situation, then go for the "XI".

+1 totally agree!

[deletedelete]

I wanted to know that I could still use the bimmer in any road condition. So I got xDrive, even though it will only be in use a few times a year.

The slight differences in mpg or 0-60 times are too small to be relevant.

[ManMachine]

Unless you have hills to climb and have deep snow, you can live through the winter just fine with RWD and snow tires.

The comparison is really with AWD vehicles that have all season tires. When people get AWD and most of them keep the all season tires on through the winter. In this regard, the RWD with snow tires aren't inferior. This debate has been ongoing forever, but check articles from Tirerack and learn more for yourself.

For performance in non-winter conditions, RWD simply out handle the Xdrive. Xdrive doesn't have a sports suspension (softer) and is higher off the ground. The result of Xdrive in normal conditions is inferior performance and lower mileage.

What happens with most consumers is that they are mostly lazy and don't want to change tires twice a year. They want to stick with all season tires. If you really care about the performance of the car, you wouldn't pick the Xdrive option for the 3 series.

[E90ice]

Originally Posted by ManMachine

Unless you have hills to climb and have deep snow, you can live through the winter just fine with RWD and snow tires.

The comparison is really with AWD vehicles that have all season tires. When people get AWD and most of them keep the all season tires on through the winter. In this regard, the RWD with snow tires aren't inferior. This debate has been ongoing forever, but check articles from Tirerack and learn more for yourself.

For performance in non-winter conditions, RWD simply out handle the Xdrive. Xdrive doesn't have a sports suspension (softer) and is higher off the ground. The result of Xdrive in normal conditions is inferior performance and lower mileage.

What happens with most consumers is that they are mostly lazy and don't want to change tires twice a year. They want to stick with all season tires. If you really care about the performance of the car, you wouldn't pick the Xdrive option for the 3 series.

Please do post the articles from Tirerack where the RWD with snow tires will outhandle or be just as good as AWD with AS tires. And I want professinal reviews.

And post your evidence where the 335i was faster than the 335xi in handling...maybe some lap times?

Also, have you owned a 335i and a 335xi? I'm just asking because I have owned both and there is NO difference in MPG.

I have also Autocrossed both cars and there is no significant difference in performance. Maybe be "i" is faster, personally I have not noticed.

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by E90ice

Clearly, you have no idea what you are talking about and I'm going to leave it at that.

I have owned both cars.

It would be nice if you tolerate an opinion that is different from you own without resorting to snitty comments like "you have no idea what you are talking about"...but whatever.

The fact that you have owned both cars is nice, but that still doesn't change all the objective data coming back from Consumer Reports, TireRack, etc.

Consumer Reports basically found (and, I admit this is with FWD cars vs. AWD not RWD cars) no difference whatsoever in stopping or handling but found that AWD were faster off the line in snow because their distribution of power enabled faster starts.


.

Originally Posted by E90ice

Clearly

In the snow or wet, unlike some of the "I" fans think, THERE IS NO COMPARISON. The "XI" will win in every situation even if you have crappy tires on and who even wants to argue with that can drive up to Seattle and lets take it for a test up in the mountains in the snow or in the rain.

TEST DRIVE both cars and see what you think. If ultimate handling is your goal and you don't care about weather the go for the "I". If you are willing to spend 2k on coilovers and feel secure 365 days a year in every situation, then go for the "XI".

I'll disagree. I'll go so far as to say there is no difference in the wet with a standard AWD system. Not a slight difference - none whatsoever. I say "standard" AWD system because I specifically excluding the type of systerm that is in the X6. Those systems have not been tested in any comparisons I'm aware of, so it is too early to make conclusions.

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by Prowess Symphony

I wanted to know that I could still use the bimmer in any road condition. So I got xDrive, even though it will only be in use a few times a year.

The slight differences in mpg or 0-60 times are too small to be relevant.

It isn't a slight difference in fuel economy. I know the numbers for the E91 off the top of my head - and it is 2 MPG on the highway. So, you're looking at a 15% penalty.

You're also adding about 250 pounds of weight, which is likely subtracting 10 to 15 HP. I think any version of the E90 has more than enough power, but purists might resist.

Of course, if you need AWD, the penalty could be worth it.

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by E90ice

Please do post the articles from Tirerack where the RWD with snow tires will outhandle or be just as good as AWD with AS tires. And I want professinal reviews.

And post your evidence where the 335i was faster than the 335xi in handling...maybe some lap times?

Also, have you owned a 335i and a 335xi? I'm just asking because I have owned both and there is NO difference in MPG.

I have also Autocrossed both cars and there is no significant difference in performance. Maybe be "i" is faster, personally I have not noticed.

So, who should we trust more: You or the EPA?

Are we really supposed to believe that the 250 pound weight difference has no impact on MPG?

When did BMW rewrite the laws of thermodynamics?

[visor]

To OP:

Answer is yes, most definitely.
Did you think that the extra 250 lbs of hardware and higher suspension is not going to affect handling?
It's up to him whether he can accept the compromise or not.

Your bro in law has to, HAS TO! test drive it himself!

[Inzane]

Originally Posted by harrington

Since I will probably not be getting either for a few years my brother in law can not decide whether to get a 335i or 335xi.

He is getting the sport package no matter what model

It seems to me that the 335xi sits up a bit higher and I have heard the suspension feels a little different.

Just be aware that the "sport package" does not include a "sport suspension" upgrade for the xi, only for the RWD i.

[johnnydad]

I'm interested in a direct comparison also, having left a Legacy 3 litre behind for a 325i E90. The two reasons for the upgrade were for superior build solidity/refinement and handling.

The mechanical grip afforded by the BMW springs and dampers as well as the larger tyres (sorry, tires) clearly makes the car far superior in its lateral grip, and the better balance (the Legacy wasn't too bad, but you can that much weight over the front axle every corner) makes it more effective in the first half of a turn - no driving around initial understeer and hardly any power-on understeer any more.

But once set up, the post-apex traction, wet or dry, was always a blast. Mash the throttle and go, very effective.

I was thinking that the BMW might provide superior balance and a more rear-biased AWD system than the Subaru so, with sport suspension and tyres, could be rather special?

[silvergray545]

if you plan on tracking the car go with the 335i

[-=Hot|Ice=-]

Originally Posted by canucklion

no need to demean the other poster.



No one is arguing AWD's benefits in slippery/wet conditions. Clearly AWD has the advantage in these slippery conditions. What I and Kilgore Trout were saying was simply that when equipped with capable snow tires, RWD does fine (read: we didn't say better than AWD) in the snow.

I agree that he was a little harsh, but canuck, cut the guy some slack, he's right.

[Majikthese42]

Depends on what you mean by "big".

C/D tested the various iterations (FWD, RWD, AWD with and without snow tires) some years ago. http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ature/(page)/1

Happy reading!

I have RWD (and winter tires), but mostly to avoid the additional mechanical complexity of the AWD system, since I usually keep cars past warranty.

[Lassaxi]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

AWD is sort of an urban myth.

AWD is not an urban myth. Urban myths are things like if you eat pop rocks and chug a diet coke, your stomach will explode, or if you flash your lights at someone at night on a dark road, you're going to get jumped.

AWD is just a drivetrain. That's all it is. There's no magic. AWD isn't going to make you a better driver. It's not going to create traction when no traction exists. It isn't going to help you get girls, or last longer in bed. It's just going to send power to four wheels instead of two. Sometimes, that's helpful, sometimes not.

For the driving I do, I think AWD is, on balance, more helpful than not. But I live outside of Boston, where the roads are like minefields of potholes, half the towns don't believe in road salt, and you're lucky if your street gets plowed on the same day the snow stops falling. I drive my car year round and have to get to work every day, regardless of how much snow or ice is on the ground. So yeah, the extra traction was more important to me than the lower chassis and firmer suspension. If I lived in Florida, and drove on smooth, flat, snow-free highways all day long, my priorities would probably be different.

[DenverJayhawk]

Originally Posted by E90ice

Please do post the articles from Tirerack where the RWD with snow tires will outhandle or be just as good as AWD with AS tires. And I want professinal reviews.

And post your evidence where the 335i was faster than the 335xi in handling...maybe some lap times?

Also, have you owned a 335i and a 335xi? I'm just asking because I have owned both and there is NO difference in MPG.

I have also Autocrossed both cars and there is no significant difference in performance. Maybe be "i" is faster, personally I have not noticed.

I believe Car and Driver has stated RWD with snow/winter tires is superior to AWD with all season tires. Remember that the type of tire is more important than the way the power is routed to the wheel.

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by Lassaxi

AWD is not an urban myth. Urban myths are things like if you eat pop rocks and chug a diet coke, your stomach will explode, or if you flash your lights at someone at night on a dark road, you're going to get jumped.

AWD is just a drivetrain. That's all it is. There's no magic. AWD isn't going to make you a better driver. It's not going to create traction when no traction exists. It isn't going to help you get girls, or last longer in bed. It's just going to send power to four wheels instead of two. Sometimes, that's helpful, sometimes not.

For the driving I do, I think AWD is, on balance, more helpful than not. But I live outside of Boston, where the roads are like minefields of potholes, half the towns don't believe in road salt, and you're lucky if your street gets plowed on the same day the snow stops falling. I drive my car year round and have to get to work every day, regardless of how much snow or ice is on the ground. So yeah, the extra traction was more important to me than the lower chassis and firmer suspension. If I lived in Florida, and drove on smooth, flat, snow-free highways all day long, my priorities would probably be different.

I personally find this to be a balanced and insightful take. Thanks!