[Unknownorder]

So my car decided not to fire up one day, called the RAC out he ran the diagnostics and said it was a starter motor problem. So we bump started it and got it home.

Got myself a starter motor from ECP and changed it over, still wont fire up.

Ignition comes on lights work ect but the car wont crank. I then decided to get a new battery and it still doesnt crank.

I was informed it could be a ground wire, i checked the one from the battery its self and its fine. Can anyone point me in the direction of where the engine ground wires are? as i have a feeling that it could be one of those which have gone with age. The car is on 115000 miles.

any help would be great.

[lookalikehuuh]

Have you tried scanning the car for any codes? Usually when a starter fails you get a starter malfunction code when you scan with a proper BMW tool.

Also check some of the basics like voltage directly at the started input while trying to start just to make sure there isn't a huge voltage drop etc.

[Unknownorder]

it has been scanned with no fault codes showing up, as i thought it was the clutch safety sensor but thats fine. i have not checked the battery voltage as i dont have a meter for it. was going to check all the earths first if you can point out there they are on the engine?

[ricx]

I see you're in the UK, shouldn't matter. Look on the driver side, to get a good look at it remove the under skirt, its by the tire under the steering column. From the top not a good view same area. Or cut your wheels so you can see the engine better same area. Its a braided cable about 1 inch wide 12 inches long. And if it's green that's bad. If it's not all there that's bad. If it's bad that's good because that's probably your problem.

[Unknownorder]

Thanks mate, will get under the car the weekend and report back to you, fingers crossed its just that

[Unknownorder]

are there any other ground locations in the engine bay? checked the one just left of the spark plugs its covered in oil due to my cam cover needing a new gasket. how many more are there?

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by Unknownorder

So my car [2007 325i E92, MT I presume?] decided not to fire up[[presume you mean Starter would NOT Crank -- engage & turn the engine] one day, called the RAC out he ran the diagnostics and said it was a starter motor problem. So we bump started it and got it home. [Based upon MULTIPLE similar accounts from Brits, it appears RAC does NOT have proper BMW Diagnostics/ knowledge, just like USA "mechnics" had NO CLUE about MGs, TR4s & XK-Es in the 60's ]
Got myself a starter motor from ECP and changed it over, still wont fire up.
Ignition comes on lights work ect but the car wont crank. I then decided to get a new battery and it still doesnt crank. [Is there ANY click from the Starter area (under the rear of the intake manifold) when someone else presses the START button with clutch pedal pressed?]...

Originally Posted by Unknownorder

it has been scanned with no fault codes showing up, as i thought it was the clutch safety sensor but thats fine. i have not checked the battery voltage as i dont have a meter for it. [Everyone who owns a car should have a cheap Multimeter and know how to use it to measure Voltage at the Jumpstart Terminals, and elsewhere for electrical system testing. "Prince of Darkness" was first used to describe Lucas electronics (in US ;-) but is equally applicable to Bosch, Denso, etc. if you don't understand how to do simple electrical tests. ] was going to check all the earths first if you can point out there they are on the engine?

Originally Posted by Unknownorder

are there any other ground locations in the engine bay? checked the one just left of the spark plugs its covered in oil due to my cam cover needing a new gasket. how many more are there?

While a bad ground cable between the Chassis and Engine CAN cause a "No Crank" situation, the easiest way to check for that is to simply attach a Jumper Cable, as a "Supplemental Ground Strap" between the Jumpstart Ground pin (Hex-shaped lug on right wing) and a good, clean metal area on the engine. If a bad ground was causing the Starter NOT to engage, then that "Supplemental Ground Strap" will allow it to crank.

The primary engine ground strap is on the Vehicle LEFT side of the engine next to the Starter (UK Passenger/ US Driver side of vehicle -- YOUR "Near" side -- or the "Far" side in US where anything strange to "America First" types is the "Far" side as opposed to the "Off" side ). However, there is NO need to remove the Splash shield to inspect that UNLESS the application of the Jumper Cable as a Supplemental Ground Strap causes Starter to Engage.

If the cable were "green", that does NOT affect its ability to conduct electricity, as that is only external oxidation or Copper Sulfate formation on the outside of the metal strands of the cable. What you do NOT want to see is BROKEN strands of wire which reduces the cable's ability to conduct electricity.

If there is NO click from the area of the Starter Motor and Solenoid when START is pressed with Clutch Pedal pressed, then it is most likely that the CAS Module is NOT sending the "Start Signal" to the Starter Solenoid. That is a 12V+ voltage from Pin #22 of CAS Connector X13376 to the Starter Solenoid & Motor, M6510 in this Schematic:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...system/uNYjfvY

That is the circuit diagram for 2007 models built after 3/1/2007 (late 2007 models). If your vehicle has a build date BEFORE 3/1/2007, use this diagram which has slight differences in JB Connectors:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...system/r14Nexa

INPA will allow you to see if "Terminal 50" is energized or if that 12V+ signal is being sent to the Starter Solenoid, WITHOUT having to take things apart. It will also tell you if the Clutch Switch Module is sending the proper signal to the CAS so that it can send the Start Signal to the Starter. INPA allows you to simply connect to the OBD II Socket with a laptop, and see that information on the computer screen (if you know what screens to open in INPA ;-)

I presume RAC tried to Crank the Starter with Jumper Cables attached to the Jumpstart Terminals under the hood, BEFORE they "bump started it" which I presume means turned the engine with vehicle moving by engaging clutch on MT vehicle. If that is the case, your battery may be low, but THAT is NOT preventing the Starter from cranking. Even if you do NOT have a multimeter to check battery voltage, there is one "built-in" to your 325i. It is called "Hidden Menu 9.00" and it can display system voltage (battery voltage when engine NOT running or alternator charging). Follow instructions given here:
http://e90.wikifoundry.com/page/BC+hidden+menus

Hidden Menu is a bit of a pain to use, as you have to activate it every time you turn on ignition. Multimeters are cheap. Here is Amazon UK example:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=multime...f=nb_sb_noss_1

If you don't have INPA for easy testing (Free Download for use on Windows 10 Laptop), you can always test electrically with a multimeter. You would have to remove the E-box cover under the hood, and use the TIS circuit diagram to locate Connector X6011 as identified in this TIS "Installation Location":
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e92-325i-cou/SL92ADs

As shown in the CAS schematic linked first, that Black wire from Pin #22 of CAS Connector X13376, goes to Pin #1 of X6011, so that should be 12V+ when START is pressed if the Clutch Switch Module is working properly.

Here is the TIS circuit for the Clutch Switch Module, and since I do NOT have a MT vehicle, this is my first interpretation of that diagram. I would presume it sends a signal, presumably Ground, to the CAS, Pin #41 of X13376, when the clutch pedal is pressed. I would be interested in knowing how you tested the Cluch Switch Module:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...module/hrLpQtE
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e92-325i-cou/RX8xesi

Please let us know what you find,
George

[Unknownorder]

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

While a bad ground cable between the Chassis and Engine CAN cause a "No Crank" situation, the easiest way to check for that is to simply attach a Jumper Cable, as a "Supplemental Ground Strap" between the Jumpstart Ground pin (Hex-shaped lug on right wing) and a good, clean metal area on the engine. If a bad ground was causing the Starter NOT to engage, then that "Supplemental Ground Strap" will allow it to crank.

The primary engine ground strap is on the Vehicle LEFT side of the engine next to the Starter (UK Passenger/ US Driver side of vehicle -- YOUR "Near" side -- or the "Far" side in US where anything strange to "America First" types is the "Far" side as opposed to the "Off" side ). However, there is NO need to remove the Splash shield to inspect that UNLESS the application of the Jumper Cable as a Supplemental Ground Strap causes Starter to Engage.

If the cable were "green", that does NOT affect its ability to conduct electricity, as that is only external oxidation or Copper Sulfate formation on the outside of the metal strands of the cable. What you do NOT want to see is BROKEN strands of wire which reduces the cable's ability to conduct electricity.

If there is NO click from the area of the Starter Motor and Solenoid when START is pressed with Clutch Pedal pressed, then it is most likely that the CAS Module is NOT sending the "Start Signal" to the Starter Solenoid. That is a 12V+ voltage from Pin #22 of CAS Connector X13376 to the Starter Solenoid & Motor, M6510 in this Schematic:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...system/uNYjfvY

That is the circuit diagram for 2007 models built after 3/1/2007 (late 2007 models). If your vehicle has a build date BEFORE 3/1/2007, use this diagram which has slight differences in JB Connectors:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...system/r14Nexa

INPA will allow you to see if "Terminal 50" is energized or if that 12V+ signal is being sent to the Starter Solenoid, WITHOUT having to take things apart. It will also tell you if the Clutch Switch Module is sending the proper signal to the CAS so that it can send the Start Signal to the Starter. INPA allows you to simply connect to the OBD II Socket with a laptop, and see that information on the computer screen (if you know what screens to open in INPA ;-)

I presume RAC tried to Crank the Starter with Jumper Cables attached to the Jumpstart Terminals under the hood, BEFORE they "bump started it" which I presume means turned the engine with vehicle moving by engaging clutch on MT vehicle. If that is the case, your battery may be low, but THAT is NOT preventing the Starter from cranking. Even if you do NOT have a multimeter to check battery voltage, there is one "built-in" to your 325i. It is called "Hidden Menu 9.00" and it can display system voltage (battery voltage when engine NOT running or alternator charging). Follow instructions given here:
http://e90.wikifoundry.com/page/BC+hidden+menus

Hidden Menu is a bit of a pain to use, as you have to activate it every time you turn on ignition. Multimeters are cheap. Here is Amazon UK example:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=multime...f=nb_sb_noss_1

If you don't have INPA for easy testing (Free Download for use on Windows 10 Laptop), you can always test electrically with a multimeter. You would have to remove the E-box cover under the hood, and use the TIS circuit diagram to locate Connector X6011 as identified in this TIS "Installation Location":
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e92-325i-cou/SL92ADs

As shown in the CAS schematic linked first, that Black wire from Pin #22 of CAS Connector X13376, goes to Pin #1 of X6011, so that should be 12V+ when START is pressed if the Clutch Switch Module is working properly.

Here is the TIS circuit for the Clutch Switch Module, and since I do NOT have a MT vehicle, this is my first interpretation of that diagram. I would presume it sends a signal, presumably Ground, to the CAS, Pin #41 of X13376, when the clutch pedal is pressed. I would be interested in knowing how you tested the Cluch Switch Module:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...module/hrLpQtE
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e92-325i-cou/RX8xesi

Please let us know what you find,
George

You are a diamond mate, yes RAC do not have BMW specific scan tools. He did not try the starter with the jump start terminals how ever i did try this today with no luck. It does 1 click then stops.

I will purchase a multimeter this week and get back to you with my findings.

Once again thanks for all of this information fingers crossed i can get this sorted soon.

[Unknownorder]

Pulled the CAS relay out and it was real hot, going to get a replacement to see if this changes anything. Tried grounding from the engine bay to the block with no luck.

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by Unknownorder

... He [RAC] did not try the starter with the jump start terminals how ever i did try this today with no luck. It does 1 click then stops. [Is that ONE CLICK coming from the Starter Solenoid area under the rear of the intake manifold? We need to identify exactly where any click comes from when START is pressed]
...

Originally Posted by Unknownorder

Pulled the CAS relay out and it was real hot, going to get a replacement to see if this changes anything. Tried grounding from the engine bay to the block with no luck.

I'm NOT sure what you are describing as "the CAS relay". Any "relay" related to Starter operation is incorporated in the CAS Module itself. The CAS activates two relays mounted on or "in" the Junction Box Fuse panel. If the relay you are describing is the large black removable relay located on the upper right of the JB Fuse Panel, that is the "Terminal 30G Relay" or Accessory Relay, as shown in this TIS Installation Location. Late 2007 JB shown, although relay position is same on early 2007 JB which has different fuse layout:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...cou/1VnYuo3ZrW

When you post back with further information from testing, please provide build Month/Year of your 2007 model so we can provide/ reference correct circuit information.

George

[Unknownorder]

Thanks George, its starting to pickle my head a bit!

It sounds like one click from the starter solenoid. Yes its Terminal 30G Relay as you described was quite hot when removing. Manufacture date is 05/2007 (May 2007).

Jake.

[Unknownorder]

Can anyone confirm this is the replacement 30G Relay?

https://www.eurocarparts.com/p/bosch-relay-451110040

[Unknownorder]

So this is the Relay i pulled out that was really hot.

6136-6901469 was the number on it, can anyone tell me what this is for?

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by Unknownorder

... It sounds like one click from the starter solenoid. Yes its Terminal 30G Relay as you described was quite hot when removing. Manufacture date is 05/2007 (May 2007). Jake.

Originally Posted by Unknownorder

Can anyone confirm this is the replacement 30G Relay?
https://www.eurocarparts.com/p/bosch-relay-451110040

Originally Posted by Unknownorder

So this is the Relay i pulled out that was really hot.
6136-6901469 was the number on it, can anyone tell me what this is for?

Hi Jake,

61366901469 is the correct 11-digit BMW part# for IO1068, the Terminal 30G Relay or Accessory relay which has NOTHING to do with Starter operation. Rather than take a random opinion from someone who may not know what he is talking about, one should learn how to use RealOEM.com as a "Parts Catalog" to determine what is the correct part for his vehicle, with the location and the function of that part:
https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/par...469&series=E92

If you refer to the TIS circuit for the CAS Module that I linked in Post #7 of this thread:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...system/uNYjfvY
you will see that IO1068, Terminal 30G Relay is activated by the CAS Module. This happens when you press START (without foot on brake or Clutch) to Activate Ignition (Terminal 15) or IO1069 which is found next to IO1068 on the Schematic. The function and temperature of that IO1068 Relay is INDEPENDENT of whether the engine is running, or whether you attempt to activate the Starter.

If the Starter does NOT crank the engine when you have an auxiliary ground cable between the chassis & engine, then as described near the end of post #7, I would suggest checking for 12V+ at Pin #1 of X6011. If NO voltage when START is pressed with Clutch Pedal Pressed, test Clutch Switch per description at end of that post.

As for your question about the Orange Bosch Relay with UNIDENTIFIED "Product Code", you would have to ask EuroCarParts, as entering "BMW 61366901469" in their search box returns "NOT Found". Doing the same on AmazonUK site returns this page with correct part#:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=bmw+613...ref=nb_sb_noss

Please let us know what you find,
George

[Unknownorder]

okay so i managed to get a copy of INPA that is actually working. anychance i can run a diagnostic to see whats working? like the clutch pedal sensor?

[Unknownorder]

Not sure if this information is any good to you George?

[Unknownorder]

Okay quick update, i pulled eveything out and took the starter motor off again.

Hooked it up to a battery and it fires up and is working fine, its sliding back and spinning like it should so the Starter Motor is fully functional.

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by Unknownorder

okay so i managed to get a copy of INPA that is actually working. anychance i can run a diagnostic to see whats working? like the clutch pedal sensor?

Congratulations! You've probably got this sorted by now, but here are the helpful Screens for my version of CAS, late 2007 E91. Screens (resized to 50%) are attached in order listed so as NOT to mess up margins. The FIRST screen may be all you need. Note the "Down-Arrow" in Green high-light at the bottom right of the INPA Screen; if you press page down, you will get MORE data, and if you see KL50 or Terminal 50, then that screen is ALL you need. For sure Terminal 50 (KL50) Voltage (Spannung) is found in the lower part of the SECOND screen listed below:

1) CAS F5, F1, F2 Status Terminal Control; Digital, circles fill when active:
 Brake, P/N, Clutch, Engine, Vehicle Speed, Handbrake; KL30G; KL50(?)

2) F5, F2, F1 Diagnose Terminals (Klemmen); Analog Bar Graphs & Voltage Values:
 Shows Voltage at various Terminals including: R(Radio), 15(Ignition), 30G(Accessory), 50 (Only when START pressed)

3) F5, F4, F1 CAN Signals (Determine if Start Conditions Met -- AT Vehicle):
 Transmisson Gear (must be P/N)
 Contact (Switch) Brake Pedal (must be pressed)
 Status Engine Running (NOT already running)

4) F5, F4, F2 Terminal Signals (Signale Klemmen); Digital On/Off:
 Status Terminal (Klemme) 50: Off (Aus)/On (Ein) [3rd Row]
 Also shows status of Terminals R & 15, Ein/Aus = On/Off

These screens are for my N52KP with GM6 AT, so your MT version should have clutch switch input in place of Gear Selected (P/N) where applicable. You may actually get better concepts of what the "Labels" or Descriptions for the data are by doing your own German to English translations. For purposes of these screens:
Voltage = Spannung
Clutch = Kupplung
Terminal = Klemmen (NOT clamp ;-)

"Terminal 50" or KL50 should have Voltage when Starter is Active or START pressed with foot on Brake (AT) or Clutch (MT)

Brake = Bremse should be active (digital circle fills) if CAS receiving input from brake light switch. SAME for Clutch = Kupplung. If Brake or Clutch signal NOT received by CAS (and circle filled while pressed) then CAS will NOT provide activation of Terminal 50 (Start signal to Starter Solenoid).

INPA makes diagnostics easy IF you know what it can show you, and you understand how the system at issue works (here the CAS circuit diagram from TIS).

Please let us know what you find, or if any questions,
George

[Unknownorder]

Thanks George, no i have ruled out it is not the starter motor i will move on to what you said for the next step. It wont be until tomorrow as i need to bolt everything back onto the car before i crank it, unless i can just try without the intake manifold on?

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by Unknownorder

Thanks George, no i have ruled out it is not the starter motor i will move on to what you said for the next step. It wont be until tomorrow as i need to bolt everything back onto the car before i crank it, unless i can just try without the intake manifold on?

You can test the Clutch Switch, using the Digital Terminal Control Screen which was my FIRST attachment to the previous post. I would NOT try to crank the Starter with things disconnected, but you CAN just press Clutch with Ignition already ON (do NOT press START button) and the Clutch/Kupplung circle should fill. If it does NOT you have found the issue (clutch switch/wiring).

While you have the Intake Manifold off, and BEFORE you connect the wire from CAS to the Starter Solenoid, you can always just test for 12V+ at that wire (DISconnected from Starter Solenoid) when START is pressed with Clutch Pedal pressed, but INPA Screens 1 & 2 in previous post will tell the story. I would NOT press START before reassembly EXCEPT to test the disconnected Starter Solenoid CAS Start Signal wire for voltage as described above. The wire is the single wire at Connector X6510 shown in this photo:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e92-325i-cou/SCA14zi

INPA Screens 1 & 2:
1) Input from Clutch Switch to CAS, causing circle to fill when Clutch Pedal pressed?
2) KL50 Voltage goes from 0 to ~ 10V (voltage drop expected) when START pressed if Clutch signal & CAS are OK.

Try BOTH of those & let us know your findings. Since you have the Intake off, you might do each of the following to ensure you don't have to go back in there:
A) Examine the wire that goes to the Solenoid for any possible damage;
B) Test that wire electrically for continuity between X6510 and Pin #1 of X6011 in the E-box, per this diagram:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e92-325i-cou/SL92ADs

George

[nsjames]

as long as you don't push the brake pedal the car will not attempt to start.

OP should buy george a beer.
the man is more patient than anyone I've ever seen on a forum.

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by nsjames

as long as you don't push the brake pedal the car will not attempt to start. [UHHHH, OP has an MT ]
OP should buy george a beer...

JUUUST what we all need at the moment: "Extra Corona" (Thanks Senator "Corny" John ;-)

"NS", if you can figure out the Clutch Switch circuit, and how to test it, please let us know, as my SWAG is THAT is what is causing OP's "No-Crank.

Thanks,
George