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      12-21-2017, 01:29 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by m34m View Post
BMW's transformation to a consumer friendly brand for the masses is complete! This includes the dilution and proliferation of the once meaningful M brand. Add in the fact this company no longer has any viability, credibility or meaningful presence in the world of racing and I'd call these guys done from the enthusiast perspective. Finished.

P.S. keep putting slush boxes in M cars fellas that's the ticket! Make sure they get bigger and heavier too.
You do know that both the new M5 and F80 M3 are lighter than their predecessors, do you?

ItÂ’s a new world buddy. Porsche, Bentley, Rolls Royce, Lamborghini and soon Ferrari had to build freakin SUVs to survive. Things change, and you either change with it or disappear.

Sheesh, are you guys even adults here?
I agree but adults don't say Sheesh or do they?

I guess they might, the older generation anyway.
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      12-21-2017, 02:05 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by m34m View Post
You are not accurate. The cars you mentioned are marginally lighter than their predecessors but larger in most dimensions. Larger is not a quality enthusiasts covet.

While some of the brands you mentioned such as Porsche were "saved" by introducing an SUV the others were not saved nor require saving. Ferrari is in fine shape for example. Simply these companies are looking for more revenue and faster growth and realize serving a particular market segment with particular products is the way to achieve this.

All of this said, whatever the motivation of these companies they can serve these mass consumer segments without diluting their core brand and competencies or alienating their enthusiast base. Porsche does this perfectly. They build beautiful sports cars that are the right size, weight, and have the right transmissions while maintaining a large and dominant footprint in motor sports.

Calling out BMW for failing miserably to achieve what Porsche has doesn't make us less "adult" my friend.
Car enthusiasts are generally the whiniest of the bunch. We love to nit pick and complain to all hell because a specific car manufacturer didn't build a car just the way that person likes. That is not how other buyers like their cars and you either get used to it now, or continue to whine about it 10 years down the line because it isn't going to change. Governments and general buyers are forcing car manufacturers hand. Don't bitch about it because you disagree, complain to the people that are making this happen.

Ferrari is an awful example as a company that doesn't do mass market sells.

Sadly unless you are super loaded with money, the business world doesn't work that way. So complaining constantly does very little.
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      12-21-2017, 02:46 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by m34m View Post
You are not accurate. The cars you mentioned are marginally lighter than their predecessors but larger in most dimensions. Larger is not a quality enthusiasts covet.

While some of the brands you mentioned such as Porsche were "saved" by introducing an SUV the others were not saved nor require saving. Ferrari is in fine shape for example. Simply these companies are looking for more revenue and faster growth and realize serving a particular market segment with particular products is the way to achieve this.

All of this said, whatever the motivation of these companies they can serve these mass consumer segments without diluting their core brand and competencies or alienating their enthusiast base. Porsche does this perfectly. They build beautiful sports cars that are the right size, weight, and have the right transmissions while maintaining a large and dominant footprint in motor sports.

Calling out BMW for failing miserably to achieve what Porsche has doesn't make us less "adult" my friend.
Car enthusiasts are generally the whiniest of the bunch. We love to nit pick and complain to all hell because a specific car manufacturer didn't build a car just the way that person likes. That is not how other buyers like their cars and you either get used to it now, or continue to whine about it 10 years down the line because it isn't going to change. Governments and general buyers are forcing car manufacturers hand. Don't bitch about it because you disagree, complain to the people that are making this happen.

Ferrari is an awful example as a company that doesn't do mass market sells.

Sadly unless you are super loaded with money, the business world doesn't work that way. So complaining constantly does very little.
I mean no disrespect but I have no clue what you're saying. Is your message that any negative remark about BMW is "whining"? So we can't make valid observations without being labeled whiners or told we aren't adults? Don't be so thin skinned if I can own four BMW's and still be objective then so can you. Porsche is knocking it out of the park as mentioned so I'm not sure what all of these lectures about "change"are about. I suppose Car & Driver is "whining" and resistant to change too?
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      12-21-2017, 04:48 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Arcades View Post
...

You said in an earlier post, calling BMW for failing? In what aspect? The fact that they still sell cars very well? Or the fact that the enthusiasts prefer cars that BMW really no longer completely cater towards? Car manufacturers aim at multiple groups of people, not to satisfy a small group of upset online people because they aren't doing it "properly" in their eyes. Benz is also moving towards this direction, a lot of brands are. It is the way it is going to be for the next few years. Get used to it. "Criticizing" them doesn't change the fact that, at the end of the day, we are complaining. You have the right to your own thoughts, and I have my right to call you out on it.

...

Tell me (...U and whoever else) what's the difference between X2 (...FWD/AWD, AT, 4-cyl hothatch/coupè style) and the many similar models produced by other concurrent carmakers.


Tell me instead (...again U or whoever else) how many RWD, MT, 6-cyl, coupé like M2 there are around.

The former, the X2, makes BMW same as the most other carmakers.
The latter, the M2, makes BMW different than the most other carmakers.
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      12-21-2017, 05:26 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by rebus View Post
Tell me (...U and whoever else) what's the difference between X2 (...FWD/AWD, AT, 4-cyl hothatch/coupè style) and the many similar models produced by other concurrent carmakers.


Tell me instead (...again U or whoever else) how many RWD, MT, 6-cyl, coupé like M2 there are around.

The former, the X2, makes BMW same as the most other carmakers.
The latter, the M2, makes BMW different than the most other carmakers.
???

What does that have to do with what I said about the people's general complaints about BMW's direction?

The M2 might not have a competitor that is directly the same but the RS3 and CLA45 are close (even though they have AWD). People would generally choose between the M2 or RS3 depending on what you want. Considering I am currently looking at this market (both the M2, RS3, CLA45 AMG as well as the Subcompact Crossover cars) I have looked into this recently for my personal use. I don't mind having the RS3. The 5 cylinder engine alone in the Audi makes it worthwhile, I'm just not big on the looks of the car. The CLA45 I-4 doesn't sound good, but that's how most I-4 engine sounds and not even AMG can overcome physics. I'm also kind of over having 2 doors. The smaller 2 door part on the M2 is better but the large 2 door of my M4 was a bit of a nuisance in small parking areas.

Engine, it's displacement, however many doors does not make the manufacturer, it is how they choose to cater the car for. There are many different other types of cars like the X2, as that is why others here are generally complaining about. They don't want BMW to chase others, they would prefer BMW being chased. BMW has no real car in this segment aside from the X1 but that is not a "coupe" version (like the X4 or X6). The Subcompact Crossover segment is filled with cars like the X2, BMW is only catching up to this. Mazda CX-3, Subaru Crosstrek, Nissan Rogue, Toyota CHR, Benz GLA. You can maybe shove in the Audi Q3 and even the Porsche Macan in this segment if you want to. The Japanese counterparts are far-less exciting but they sell very well because they are very inexpensive and do their jobs well. Porsche Macan sells amazingly well aside from being the fact that it's way pricier than others listed.
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      12-21-2017, 06:07 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rebus View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcades View Post
...

You said in an earlier post, calling BMW for failing? In what aspect? The fact that they still sell cars very well? Or the fact that the enthusiasts prefer cars that BMW really no longer completely cater towards? Car manufacturers aim at multiple groups of people, not to satisfy a small group of upset online people because they aren't doing it "properly" in their eyes. Benz is also moving towards this direction, a lot of brands are. It is the way it is going to be for the next few years. Get used to it. "Criticizing" them doesn't change the fact that, at the end of the day, we are complaining. You have the right to your own thoughts, and I have my right to call you out on it.

...

Tell me (...U and whoever else) what's the difference between X2 (...FWD/AWD, AT, 4-cyl hothatch/coupè style) and the many similar models produced by other concurrent carmakers.


Tell me instead (...again U or whoever else) how many RWD, MT, 6-cyl, coupé like M2 there are around.

The former, the X2, makes BMW same as the most other carmakers.
The latter, the M2, makes BMW different than the most other carmakers.
Yep. No difference between the x2 and the other competitors so when my current x1 needs replacing I'll be shopping other brands and in many cases at a lower price point. For me at least, they were differentiated before and I wouldn't shop those other brands. Now that they are similar there is no reason to not shop broader. I've bought all my BMWs fundamentally because of their blend of price, performance, and driving dynamics driven by their 50/50 distribution. This combination kept me captive to the brand. Now I'm not captive. Can't speak for others.
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      12-21-2017, 06:36 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Arcades View Post
???

What does that have to do with what I said about the people's general complaints about BMW's direction?

...

X2... FWD, SAV/SUV/SIV/SEV/SOV/SAC
M2... RWD, coupé


...just this "thing/characteristic/detail" changes the whole BMW (hi)story.


[BMW is short-term smart... but it's a long-term foolish.]


P.S.: And who "knows" what's BMW is/was 'bout has his/her own right complaining... will BMW satisfy masses w/ easy models?... why not?... and then why not buying an "easy" model of another brand that costs less offering even more?
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      12-21-2017, 06:40 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by acarrick29 View Post
Go buy another brand then buddy.
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Originally Posted by FreudeamFahren18 View Post
Go buy another brand then buddy.
Exactly my thoughts. Does he even own a BMW?
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Originally Posted by Arcades View Post
lol BMW sells perfectly fine. The only ones whining are ppl online which matters extremely little.

if you want something to bitch about, go at the government... because a few whiners online are complaining.
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Originally Posted by Arcades View Post
Car enthusiasts are generally the whiniest of the bunch. Governments... are forcing car manufacturers hand. Don't bitch about it because you disagree.

Ferrari is an awful example as a company that doesn't do mass market sells.
Sadly unless you are super loaded with money, the business world doesn't work that way.
Sincerely told, I don’t know what to tell about a forum member who has a pink chewing-gum with a tin-foil hat for avatar and plasters post after post with “whinning” “bitch” “complaining” “online”.

Calling Ferrari “awful” because it does not cater to mass-market (people who otherwise buy Ford and Oldsmobile) is beyond comprehension; Ferrari, Aston Martin, Rolls Royce, Bentley, Lamborghini are not constructed and designed for every day traffic needs; they’re envisioned for a very narrow circle that has very specific requirements.
Ferrari profits have always been sky high and let me inform you that their “awful” business model, as you call it, does so well there are waiting lines and their most expensive models go only to the selected clientele; in other words, even if you manage to scrap together enough money, you’re not going to get the high end models.

Even less clear are your conspiracy government “trails in the sky” and considering I’m not an expert on that, I’ll pass replying.

As for “buy another brand”; you’re not going to dictate me or anyone else what I’m going or not going to buy. This is a forum, for people to express their thoughts, freely. I appreciate any product opinion, no matter what it is, bit I don’t care for people calling out posts and going into personal attacks on those who share another view of a product.
When I’m going to order a new car, I’m going to select what is best for my needs at that given moment; the best package gets my money.

Last edited by Antares; 12-21-2017 at 06:51 AM.
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      12-21-2017, 09:11 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by m34m View Post
You are not accurate. The cars you mentioned are marginally lighter than their predecessors but larger in most dimensions. Larger is not a quality enthusiasts covet.

...whatever the motivation of these companies they can serve these mass consumer segments without diluting their core brand and competencies or alienating their enthusiast base. Porsche does this perfectly. They build beautiful sports cars that are the right size, weight, and have the right transmissions while maintaining a large and dominant footprint in motor sports.

Calling out BMW for failing miserably to achieve what Porsche has doesn't make us less "adult" my friend.
You're right about size... I'm concerned that the G20 will simply make the 3 series too damn big (regardless of weight)

Porsche are doing a good job yes, though I've heard many a complaint suggesting the 911 has now grown too big... maybe that's where the Cayman comes in... oh no wait, we're now all whining about their new 4 pot engines!! And BMW haven't failed miserably at all, they are a business and need to make Profits! They still build good RWD cars, the 2 series being a prime example and the F30 is a fine car, if now a little 'over refined'! I do feel sad however that if we want a new compact RWD BMW in the future the 2 door 2 series is our only option!

Real pity the new 2 series GC will be FWD, however I bet it will still be a great car to drive as FWD doesn't HAVE to ruin handling (Focus, Golf, Scirocco etc)...
I do feel too many people are already slating this X2 purely because of it's drive orientation, before we get some real opinions on how it drives. My guess is that it will actually be a 'best in class' drive at it's price point (it won't match a Macan, but then that's a much more expensive car!)

Last edited by nozydog; 12-21-2017 at 09:20 AM.
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      12-21-2017, 09:14 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by adc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by m34m View Post
BMW's transformation to a consumer friendly brand for the masses is complete! This includes the dilution and proliferation of the once meaningful M brand. Add in the fact this company no longer has any viability, credibility or meaningful presence in the world of racing and I'd call these guys done from the enthusiast perspective. Finished.

P.S. keep putting slush boxes in M cars fellas that's the ticket! Make sure they get bigger and heavier too.
You do know that both the new M5 and F80 M3 are lighter than their predecessors, do you?

It’s a new world buddy. Porsche, Bentley, Rolls Royce, Lamborghini and soon Ferrari had to build freakin SUVs to survive. Things change, and you either change with it or disappear.

Sheesh, are you guys even adults here?
Son, you dont own any of the brand you mentioned...sheesh
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      12-21-2017, 10:54 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by LemonOne View Post
BMW should go back to the days when they only had 3,5,7, X5, X3.

So in other words, go out of business. Hooray! What a BMW fan you are.!

Maybe Porsche should stop selling SAV also ?
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      12-21-2017, 10:56 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Roch M4 View Post
5 000 $ more expensive than a X1...for the same size, less cargo, less rear visibility, ugly design...I don't get it
Rational points .. wow. A rarity in this thread.
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      12-21-2017, 11:04 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nozydog View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by m34m View Post
You are not accurate. The cars you mentioned are marginally lighter than their predecessors but larger in most dimensions. Larger is not a quality enthusiasts covet.

...whatever the motivation of these companies they can serve these mass consumer segments without diluting their core brand and competencies or alienating their enthusiast base. Porsche does this perfectly. They build beautiful sports cars that are the right size, weight, and have the right transmissions while maintaining a large and dominant footprint in motor sports.

Calling out BMW for failing miserably to achieve what Porsche has doesn't make us less "adult" my friend.
You're right about size... I'm concerned that the G20 will simply make the 3 series too damn big (regardless of weight)

Porsche are doing a good job yes, though I've heard many a complaint suggesting the 911 has now grown too big... maybe that's where the Cayman comes in... oh no wait, we're now all whining about their new 4 pot engines!! And BMW haven't failed miserably at all, they are a business and need to make Profits! They still build good RWD cars, the 2 series being a prime example and the F30 is a fine car, if now a little 'over refined'! I do feel sad however that if we want a new compact RWD BMW in the future the 2 door 2 series is our only option!

Real pity the new 2 series GC will be FWD, however I bet it will still be a great car to drive as FWD doesn't HAVE to ruin handling (Focus, Golf, Scirocco etc)...
I do feel too many people are already slating this X2 purely because of it's drive orientation, before we get some real opinions on how it drives. My guess is that it will actually be a 'best in class' drive at it's price point (it won't match a Macan, but then that's a much more expensive car!)
Once the new 2 series goes to an FWD based chassis I will no longer be interested just like I am no longer interested in an X1. I own an e84 X1 and am not interested in the X2.

If BMW really cancels the M2 CSL , then I will have to agree with Pyrat 2 that there may not be a single product in the lineup that captures ME as a BMW buyer.

The 3/4/5/7 are all much larger cars than I want.

My friend 1M Tex just won an opportunity for a custom M5. If I won the same prize I would give it away. I just don't need or require a full size sedan. And I surely don't have the cash for a six figure vehicle.

I am still mildly interested in moving my X1 M sport up slightly in size so an X3 M40 may be the last BMW I am interested In purchasing. I love the brand but certainly don't see a lot on the menu for me

The X3M will probably be way too $$$.
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      12-21-2017, 11:33 AM   #58
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....this vehicle is designed for a specific market segment!,...most likely it's none of us! However, I like it,...as it looks like a pocket ute!
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      12-21-2017, 11:36 AM   #59
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Give me a real color and an M40i trim and you have an amazing "entry-level" high performance SAV
That would be like stuffing the 6 into a Mini (which the X2 basically is) Not going to happen.
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      12-21-2017, 11:45 AM   #60
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Give me a real color and an M40i trim and you have an amazing "entry-level" high performance SAV
That would be like stuffing the 6 into a Mini (which the X2 basically is) Not going to happen.
If you continue reading you'd see I meant the tuned up b48 which I guess will be the new 35i
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      12-21-2017, 12:25 PM   #61
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....this vehicle is designed for a specific market segment!,...most likely it's none of us! However, I like it,...as it looks like a pocket ute!
I actually agree 100 percent. This is a vehicle that should sell well. The X1 is already killing this market and the X2 should as well. I believe the Nissan Rogue or something is dominating sales of all crossovers in the US.

The X2 is is the perfect College coed or grad vehicle. The equivalent of the 1980s hatchback.

For me however, that is part of the difference, the X1 and X2 are crossovers and I don't think they can zoot these up enough to get to believe it's an SAV as per the original definition from BMW.
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      12-21-2017, 12:26 PM   #62
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If you continue reading you'd see I meant the tuned up b48 which I guess will be the new 35i
Sorry, missed that post.

But that will be a pretty maxed out 4 pot.
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      12-21-2017, 12:39 PM   #63
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If you continue reading you'd see I meant the tuned up b48 which I guess will be the new 35i
Sorry, missed that post.

But that will be a pretty maxed out 4 pot.
Yea it's about time too. Audi and MB already have 300+ hp 2 liter turbos.

Heck the G20 330i should have 300hp or close to it with the m340i reportedly making 380
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      12-21-2017, 05:14 PM   #64
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So in other words, go out of business. Hooray! What a BMW fan you are.!

Maybe Porsche should stop selling SAV also ?
There's a difference between a fanboy and an enthusiast.
I'm the latter (or I guess you could say I'm an oldschool bmw fan)
People who are born in the 90's will never understand where i'm coming from.
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      12-21-2017, 05:17 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by JMD View Post
....this vehicle is designed for a specific market segment!,...most likely it's none of us! However, I like it,...as it looks like a pocket ute!
I agree. I used to be one of "us" (2 Ferrari's, 1 Nissan GTR, 2 911's, can't remember all the Beemers, '65 Shelby GT 350, Healy 100-4, '32 MG F2, MG TC & TD, C-4 Corvette, et al) but now I'm 76 and I'm a customer of the "new" BMW; so I'm now "them". I'll probably buy a plug-in version of this X2 to replace my 330e because it's practical and will probably be very maneuverable in the city, where I will drive it. It would be much more sensible to buy the X1 for the reasons enumerated above, but I like the swoopy looks of the X2, compared to the SUV looks of the X1. The cost difference is like looking at the X6 compared to the X5--same chassis, more or less; but the X6 looks so "fat" that it's ugly to me and so not worth the extra $. I keep my membership to the BMWCCA, even though it's editorial content is of no interest to me any more (too much on the glory days of small BMW's) for the $2K rebate. As the above poster says, the posters on this forum do not represent the new buyers of BMW's; but BMW has probably concluded that there are a lot more of them than there are hard-core BMW owners that are VERY disturbed by BMW's new direction. Now that I'm old and have hung up my helmet and track suit, I find the new direction of BMW to be just my cup of tea. But, I know that I'm not representative of most of the members of this forum. I still like to read what's going on, though; so thank all of you for the contributions
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      12-21-2017, 05:52 PM   #66
Jono2112
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Give me a real color and an M40i trim and you have an amazing "entry-level" high performance SAV
How does the inline six fit a front wheel drive platform?
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