[beenthere1]

Hi all,

I am FULLY aware this post borders on insanity, but I'll toss it out there anyway.

I have been driving my M235i with X-drive in sport plus mode recently. This mode offers 1. the linear throttle and steering feel of comfort mode and 2. the stiffer chassis and louder exhaust of sport mode. I very much like these dynamics as I feel that the steering in sport is unnecessarily heavy.

The only downside (aside from laughable fuel economy) is that I know I am turning off a portion of the stability control. Assuming I don't engage sport + in the rain or snow, is it possible that I could skid or spin if I'm too aggressive on the throttle? If yes, would the required speed to generate such a result be north of highway speeds?

Anecdotal evidence suggests sport plus is just as stable as sport, but I don't want to be surprised.

Thanks!

[3.0L]

Originally Posted by beenthere1

Hi all,

I am FULLY aware this post borders on insanity, but I'll toss it out there anyway.

I have been driving my M235i with X-drive in sport plus mode recently. This mode offers 1. the linear throttle and steering feel of comfort mode and 2. the stiffer chassis and louder exhaust of sport mode. I very much like these dynamics as I feel that the steering in sport is unnecessarily heavy.

The only downside (aside from laughable fuel economy) is that I know I am turning off a portion of the stability control. Assuming I don't engage sport + in the rain or snow, is it possible that I could skid or spin if I'm too aggressive on the throttle? If yes, would the required speed to generate such a result be north of highway speeds?

Anecdotal evidence suggests sport plus is just as stable as sport, but I don't want to be surprised.

Thanks!

As I understand it, selecting the Sport+ mode turns off nearly all of the electronic nannies, basically making your car a true sports car. In other words, yes, you can get yourself into trouble, just like in the old days.

Have fun.

[th1rd3y3]

There is nothing that will 100% prevent you from skidding/spinning. That said, the aids in the car will greatly reduce the chance of it happening if you're not attentive or don't know how to react to said occurrence.

If it bothers you this much, I'd suggest finding a secluded parking lot where you can't hurt yourself, others, or your car and try it. Another great place to learn is by attending some auto-x events. They're cheap to do and you'll struggle to learn more from your car in a safe environment for the price. There will also be a TON of people who can help you learn to drive better and react to the situations you're concerned about.

[BarryJI]

In a RWD vehicle, Sport + mode will not give you linear throttle control. The driving mode you describe, in my 228i M Sport with THP and adaptive suspension, can only be accomplished by pressing the DTS OFF button in the center console for more than three seconds. This will set the suspension to the full sport mode but retain "Comfort" mode for throttle input. If, while in this configuration, you try to switch to Sport or Sport + mode, you will lose linear throttle input in favor of the "weighted" throttle input.

Perhaps the X-Drive is set up differently but I suspect you may be mistaken in thinking you can get linear throttle input while in either Sport or Sport + mode. The DTS OFF mode is like a "secret" mode in that it's not activated by the dedicated rocker switch at all but by the DTS button alone.

[Transfer]

I was under the impression that Sport+ had the hyper sensitive throttle and heavy steering as well as stiff suspension and open exhaust. The only difference from Sport is that with Sport+ DTC is activated (allows some slippage). Sport settings can be custom configured but I haven't played with that yet so I don't know the ins and outs.

With an xdrive car, it should be virtually impossible to oversteer and spin out unless you are doing tight high throttle donuts in a parking lot or lift throttle oversteer at speed. So personally, as I mostly know what I'm doing behind the wheel, I drive mostly with DTC (sport+) if I'm looking to drive aggressively. I haven't done any DSC fully off yet only because I haven't had the time or space to feel how the car handles with xdrive. 99% of my driving in the week I've owned it has been behind another car.

[BarryJI]

Originally Posted by Transfer

I was under the impression that Sport+ had the hyper sensitive throttle and heavy steering as well as stiff suspension and open exhaust. The only difference from Sport is that with Sport+ DTC is activated (allows some slippage). Sport settings can be custom configured but I haven't played with that yet so I don't know the ins and outs.

With an xdrive car, it should be virtually impossible to oversteer and spin out unless you are doing tight high throttle donuts in a parking lot or lift throttle oversteer at speed. So personally, as I mostly know what I'm doing behind the wheel, I drive mostly with DTC (sport+) if I'm looking to drive aggressively. I haven't done any DSC fully off yet only because I haven't had the time or space to feel how the car handles with xdrive. 99% of my driving in the week I've owned it has been behind another car.

Yes, there is no linear throttle in Sport or Sport +.

[scrape1]

I believe the only difference between Sport and Sport+ is that DTC is active (below 30 mph), which allows a little wheel spin when taking off. I don't believe DSC will allow any more yaw in Sport+ than is Sport before putting on the brakes, though I could be wrong on this.

I don't use either mode because I hate the sensitive throttle. Since I don't have adaptive dampers, I just drive in Comfort + DTC on, or with DSC off, which gives the heavier steering of Sport and the linear throttle of Comfort mode.

[Cyberdemon]

Sport + will reduce the impact of the DSC, but it will still be engaged. You can have a little bit more shenanigans before the nannies kick in.

Frankly this car is so well balanced and has so much grip on the PSS tires that you have to REALLY try and get it worked up, even on RWD. There's been times I've tried to hoon it around a corner and wound up just with a buttload of grip and acceleration, much to my dismay.

The RFT's certainly let you be more of a jerk at lower speeds.

[BarryJI]

There's been times I've tried to hoon it around a corner and wound up just with a buttload of grip and acceleration, much to my dismay.

Is that a polite way of saying it understeers?

[Cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by BarryJI

Is that a polite way of saying it understeers?

Not at all, the car gives me the exact amount of steering that I ask for, but with the amount of grip it has on the PSS there are turns that I could easily break loose on the stock RFT's where the PSS just hold and go.

My car is on a square 235 setup, so it may be a bit more neutral than the staggered setup FWIW.

[Xiaoxi]

Sports+ is just regular sport (drivetrain & chassis) with a little more leeway in terms of stability control. It will still kick in under most circumstances...quite effectively.

DSC OFF, on the other hand...you're completely on your own.

I believe DSC OFF is the most appropriate for actual track driving.

Originally Posted by Cyberdemon

The RFT's certainly let you be more of a jerk at lower speeds.

Definitely. It does not take much to unsettle my rear RFTs, especially with dsc off.

[beenthere1]

"With an xdrive car, it should be virtually impossible to oversteer and spin out unless you are doing tight high throttle donuts in a parking lot or lift throttle oversteer at speed. So personally, as I mostly know what I'm doing behind the wheel, I drive mostly with DTC (sport+) if I'm looking to drive aggressively. I haven't done any DSC fully off yet only because I haven't had the time or space to feel how the car handles with xdrive. 99% of my driving in the week I've owned it has been behind another car."

THANK YOU!

So, uh, what does, "lift throttle oversteer at speed" actually mean?

I'd really like to safely understand the limits of my car, but I'm not sure how to go about doing that. Track days seems intimidating. I guess I could take the car to a giant empty lot and see what's what.

[scottyn]

Originally Posted by beenthere1

So, uh, what does, "lift throttle oversteer at speed" actually mean?

I'd really like to safely understand the limits of my car, but I'm not sure how to go about doing that. Track days seems intimidating. I guess I could take the car to a giant empty lot and see what's what.

Lift-off oversteer...essentially easing up on the throttle (or coming off completely) while cornering. Weight shifts from back to fron of the car, hence you lose grip at the back while it holds tight at the front. You've still gotta be driving it pretty close to the limits of grip for this to happen (or, from what I hear, have a rear-engined car like a 911)

[Transfer]

Originally Posted by beenthere1

THANK YOU!

So, uh, what does, "lift throttle oversteer at speed" actually mean?

I'd really like to safely understand the limits of my car, but I'm not sure how to go about doing that. Track days seems intimidating. I guess I could take the car to a giant empty lot and see what's what.

As stated, if you're driving fast under acceleration and suddenly drop the throttle, the front end will dive to some degree and the rear end becomes light. If this happens on a curve and the road surface is poor, expect that the rear end could want to come around if you're not paying attention. The same thing can happen with braking in a turn and if controlled, this can be desireable. This mostly happens on front end heavy cars though so not sure how much risk there is with our 2ers.

If you want to try out your car's limits with guidance, try and find a true beginner track day class. Maybe your local BMW car club chapter holds car control clinics.

[Cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by beenthere1

I'd really like to safely understand the limits of my car, but I'm not sure how to go about doing that. Track days seems intimidating. I guess I could take the car to a giant empty lot and see what's what.

There are a lot of ways to learn the limits of the car without putting yourself in danger.

If you don't want to do it on your own car, consider the BMW M school. The 1 day school does a great job of covering basic car control and helps you understand why the car behaves the way it does and how weight transfers impacts traction and handling.

If you register for the BMW CCA you also qualify for a substantial discount. It isn't cheap, but I highly recommend it. Getting to flog someone else's M3/4/5 on their tires and track is certainly worth the money if you can spare it.

[Pray for Mojo]

You would be hard pressed to lose control of an xdrive car even with DCS off. Even hooning mine it is difficult to get the backend to walk very much except in 1st gear.

[moldcad]

Originally Posted by scottyn

Lift-off oversteer...essentially easing up on the throttle (or coming off completely) while cornering. Weight shifts from back to fron of the car, hence you lose grip at the back while it holds tight at the front. You've still gotta be driving it pretty close to the limits of grip for this to happen (or, from what I hear, have a rear-engined car like a 911)

Yep. With xDrive cars, this technique (at high enough corner-attacking speed) is the only one way to fishtail (on corner exit - when you car is already drifting - you control it applying throttle (lots of it) again).

The fact it can (and does) only happen at high enough speed means that it can be done:

- either by someone who attacked the corner too fast (relative to his driving skills and self-confidence), and so just panicked; one usually gets off the throttle in panic, right? So be aware of that!

- or by a good and experienced driver, who' lifted off throttle on purpose to drift his AWD car.

I must admit my first occurence of AWD fishtailing happened unintentionally to me in my previous, AWD 528xi. It was scary, as at that time I already was "put off guard" by the xDrive apparent inability of drifting through tight and quick curves... But I learnt my lesson then, and used this technique very often since (only intentionally from then on ), with my AWD Golf R with tons of grip - the better the grip, the higher my speed on curve entrance must be for throttle-lift to be effective. Therefore - after I got my RWD M235i (and with LSD, too) - I'm finding it extremely easy to fishtail it and it's still safe, as I don't need to drive really fast for doing that (quite unlike with my AWD Golf R).

Haven't tracked my M235i yet, but one day I'll try - would love so much to repeat the drifting sensation at really high speed!

To the OP: on tires such as PSS, you are safe as long as you don't panic in a tight curve (or just before it), and don't lift your throttle; after you learn you car better you can try drifting with throttle lifting at higher speeds - but don't try to learn it on public roads! After you master the technique, you can do it on the street with in a moderate fashion, just as all of us RWD bimmer owners do

[scrape1]

These cars have so much more rear end than front end grip that the only way I have been able to get the rear loose is to stomp on the gas, or brake late and hard into a turn.

As far as lift off oversteer in Porsches, here is what C&D had to say abouyt it.

"Early Porsche 911s became infamous for a propensity toward snap oversteer. The rear-engine layout wasn't the problem, it was the semi-trailing-arm rear suspension. When unloaded—say, as the driver lifted off the throttle going into a corner—it caused the rear tires to shift from negative to positive camber and also reduced the outside tire's toe-in. "

[moldcad]

Originally Posted by scrape1

These cars have so much more rear end than front end grip that the only way I have been able to get the rear loose is to stomp on the gas, or brake late and hard into a turn.

"These cars"... you mean M235xi? If so, you are wrong - if I could do it with the N20 F10 xDrive, it can be done with "these cars", too... OF course the effect of getting off-throttle might require higher speeds than with the F10 due to the M235i xDrive shorter wheelbase and lower weight (hence the moment of inertia), but once the rear lets go you have much more torque and power to continue the drift with all 4 wheels, Scandinavian style - aka side drift... Look at those early videos from testing the Golf R on snowy roads!

PS. One more aspect of the technique is ability to save your ass in situations of having entered the curve with too high speed and imminent understeer that can take you into the ditch front first, i.e. without even fishtailing - you can often avoid it at the last moment by closing your throttle; similar mechanism will lead to the fronts regaining grip and thus avoiding understeer disaster,