[Liquidpaper]

Hello All:

For my earlier thread on this subject see http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1040545

It's now been a little over 5,000 miles and 5 track days, and I thought I would post an update to my earlier impressions about a novice driver taking the M235i to the track. I've had some interesting things come up since the last thread.

New impressions:

Car is still great on the track. Impressive (especially for a beginner), keeps up with traffic, fun, and does the ride home well.

Engine:

Still great. Funny story. I was at the Alfa Club TT school this past weekend at the Streets of Willow. I was sharing the track with a 911S (997). On the front straight, the driver mentioned to me that I was pulling away from him up the hill and he could not catch up (got me in the corners - no surprise there). Forced induction for the win.

Transmission:

Nothing new to add. Still good.

Suspension/Steering:

Nothing new to add, but sort of relates to my bit below.

Tires/Brakes/Etc.

The PSS are gone - corded them last weekend after 5000 miles and 5 track days (RIP). I just got some Dunlop Direzza II's mounted tonight.

This bears some explanation. I noticed a few weeks ago some weird wear on the sidewall/shoulder. I was told (by a more experienced driver) that I needed to boost the pressure in the front. So I did to 36 cold. Problem persisted. Last weekend at Streets, left front tire chunked and corded - overheated and died. Right front was on its way -- the rears were fine.

A few things. First, I am a novice driver and I probably was driving them harder than they would have been with a more experienced hand. Second, Streets is very hard on tires and breaks - all turns with very few straights to cool things off.

However, the PSS have a problem that they really kind of gloss over in the advertisements - it has a super soft sidewall in comparison to the type of environments Michelin infers the tire is built for. Is the PSS a great, sticky street tire? Absolutely. Is it an okay track tire for very occasional use? Yeah, maybe. Is it a good track tire generally? Nope. The tire makes too many compromises. It has a soft sidewall to cushion the ride on the street and more tread to deal with water evacuation. These are not things you want with a dry track tire -- you have to be willing to deal with some noise and stiffness (and reduced wet performance) if you really want to track this thing and not switch to dedicated R-comp track tires.

I've looked up this issue (tracking the PSS) and others have had similar experiences - excessive shoulder wear and cording/chunking after about 5000 miles and 4-5 track days. Bottom line -- if you are thinking about tracking the car more than very occasionally, be prepared to ruin your PSS' and then switch to a more extreme, trackable tire - RE-11's, Direzzas, Advans, etc. The best way to explain this is the PSS is a great street tire than you can put on the track. The ones I have mentioned are track tires that you happen to be able to put on the street.

Yeah, the front tires could use some negative camber to deal with some of the shoulder wear. However, the lack of camber shouldn't lead to the destruction of a purported "high performance sport tire" in 5000 miles and 5 track days. The PSS just don't seem to be up to the task.

Oh, and I just had my 5k oil change and brake check -- 60% left on front and 80% on rear. the M-Sport pads are holding up quite well. If you want to track on the cheap (and easy) keep the stock pads and put in some ATE 200 (or some other) hi-temp DOT 4 fluid. Makes a big difference in brake fade.

Final thoughts:

Car still turns a lot of heads at the track. A guy I work with was in his Alfa race car with me this past weekend and told me how great my engine sounds. I still have a lot of people ask me about it.

Also, I still love her (Brunhilde). Always excited to drive or go out to the track.

If you guys have questions about anything I haven't mentioned, ask in the comments.

[kaputt]

Awesome. Love hearing stuff like this about the F22.

Do you happen to film any of your track sessions with a GoPro or anything? I've been dying to see this car in action but pretty much nothing shows up on the YouTube search.

[Liquidpaper]

Originally Posted by kaputt

Awesome. Love hearing stuff like this about the F22.

Do you happen to film any of your track sessions with a GoPro or anything? I've been dying to see this car in action but pretty much nothing shows up on the YouTube search.

You know I haven't yet, but I've considered getting one and doing that. Maybe I'll get a GoPro for Christmas or something and get some footage of my shitty track driving.

[dharo1]

Great write-up!!!

You mentioned that you had your 5k oil change. Was this done/paid by the dealer? I believe dealer pays for the first oil change at 10k.

I think a GoPro would be a great add-on to your posts!

[Liquidpaper]

Originally Posted by dharo1

Great write-up!!!

You mentioned that you had your 5k oil change. Was this done/paid by the dealer? I believe dealer pays for the first oil change at 10k.

I think a GoPro would be a great add-on to your posts!

Nope. I have a family BMW mechanic that I use in West LA that did my tires tonight, checked the brakes, and did the oil change. If anyone is in the area (and needs a good one), look up GT International Motors. John Norris is the owner/head mechanic and does quality work, and is a racer/BMW enthusiast himself.

[pikcachu]

Originally Posted by Liquidpaper

Hello All:

For my earlier thread on this subject see http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1040545

It's now been a little over 5,000 miles and 5 track days, and I thought I would post an update to my earlier impressions about a novice driver taking the M235i to the track. I've had some interesting things come up since the last thread.

New impressions:

Car is still great on the track. Impressive (especially for a beginner), keeps up with traffic, fun, and does the ride home well.

Engine:

Still great. Funny story. I was at the Alfa Club TT school this past weekend at the Streets of Willow. I was sharing the track with a 911S (997). On the front straight, the driver mentioned to me that I was pulling away from him up the hill and he could not catch up (got me in the corners - no surprise there). Forced induction for the win.

Transmission:

Nothing new to add. Still good.

Suspension/Steering:

Nothing new to add, but sort of relates to my bit below.

Tires/Brakes/Etc.

The PSS are gone - corded them last weekend after 5000 miles and 5 track days (RIP). I just got some Dunlop Direzza II's mounted tonight.

This bears some explanation. I noticed a few weeks ago some weird wear on the sidewall/shoulder. I was told (by a more experienced driver) that I needed to boost the pressure in the front. So I did to 36 cold. Problem persisted. Last weekend at Streets, left front tire chunked and corded - overheated and died. Right front was on its way -- the rears were fine.

A few things. First, I am a novice driver and I probably was driving them harder than they would have been with a more experienced hand. Second, Streets is very hard on tires and breaks - all turns with very few straights to cool things off.

However, the PSS have a problem that they really kind of gloss over in the advertisements - it has a super soft sidewall in comparison to the type of environments Michelin infers the tire is built for. Is the PSS a great, sticky street tire? Absolutely. Is it an okay track tire for very occasional use? Yeah, maybe. Is it a good track tire generally? Nope. The tire makes too many compromises. It has a soft sidewall to cushion the ride on the street and more tread to deal with water evacuation. These are not things you want with a dry track tire -- you have to be willing to deal with some noise and stiffness (and reduced wet performance) if you really want to track this thing and not switch to dedicated R-comp track tires.

I've looked up this issue (tracking the PSS) and others have had similar experiences - excessive shoulder wear and cording/chunking after about 5000 miles and 4-5 track days. Bottom line -- if you are thinking about tracking the car more than very occasionally, be prepared to ruin your PSS' and then switch to a more extreme, trackable tire - RE-11's, Direzzas, Advans, etc. The best way to explain this is the PSS is a great street tire than you can put on the track. The ones I have mentioned are track tires that you happen to be able to put on the street.

Yeah, the front tires could use some negative camber to deal with some of the shoulder wear. However, the lack of camber shouldn't lead to the destruction of a purported "high performance sport tire" in 5000 miles and 5 track days. The PSS just don't seem to be up to the task.

Oh, and I just had my 5k oil change and brake check -- 60% left on front and 80% on rear. the M-Sport pads are holding up quite well. If you want to track on the cheap (and easy) keep the stock pads and put in some ATE 200 (or some other) hi-temp DOT 4 fluid. Makes a big difference in brake fade.

Final thoughts:

Car still turns a lot of heads at the track. A guy I work with was in his Alfa race car with me this past weekend and told me how great my engine sounds. I still have a lot of people ask me about it.

Also, I still love her (Brunhilde). Always excited to drive or go out to the track.

If you guys have questions about anything I haven't mentioned, ask in the comments.

I ran 38 all around before each session.... you need a lot of psi in the front if you don't want to wear the outside so it doesn't roll over

how many miles does your idrive shows for the brakes in the service section?

[Liquidpaper]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

I ran 38 all around before each session.... you need a lot of psi in the front if you don't want to wear the outside so it doesn't roll over

how many miles does your idrive shows for the brakes in the service section?

Yeah . . . unfortunately I only found that out after I had corded my tires. Still, shouldn't have to run at 38psi cold to keep the tires from rolling over.

I haven't checked my idrive brake section lately. I'll do it later and get back to you.

[Ricfutures]

Great post. Any pics of your car and tires (both old and new) that you could share? Would love to see the damage to the tires and what your new set up looks like as well.

[dharo1]

Originally Posted by Ricfutures

Great post. Any pics of your car and tires (both old and new) that you could share? Would love to see the damage to the tires and what your new set up looks like as well.

+1

[Liquidpaper]

Originally Posted by Ricfutures

Great post. Any pics of your car and tires (both old and new) that you could share? Would love to see the damage to the tires and what your new set up looks like as well.

Here are two pics I just snapped. The sidewall is "beefy" but I really don't think it is too much for the wheel, especially considering how stiff the Direzza II sidewall is.

Also, for those of you who think the M235i is too soft, you might want to try an extreme performance summer tire like this one -- the ride is still compliant, but more stiff, and I feel like you get better feedback from the road.

Oh, and there are complaints that the Direzza II (and other similar tires) are loud. I don't really seem to notice, but maybe it will show up when I'm on the highway.

[hyperzulu]

Sounds like you should invest in a dedicated wheel/tire combo you swap to for track days. Then you won't have to worry, run the dedicated set on dry track days, and should the track be wet you can leave the PSS on for their superior wet track performance.

[Cyberdemon]

Yeah trying to get the best of both worlds doesn't exist in tires. Invest in a set of spare wheels (preferably something lightweight that you don't mind being riddled with brake dust) and a set of real track tires.

Trying to run ultra sticky tires on the street is just going to kick up tons of dirt and gravel whenever you're driving, make a ton of noise, and they'll most likely last you even fewer miles than the PSS.

Plus this way, if you chunk part of your tire off at the track you aren't trying to limp it home on bad tires. I'm not sure about the 2 series, but you should be able to fit 4 tires if you can get 2 in the trunk - 1 in the back and 1 on the passenger seat (old blankets are your friend).

[E30M3Driver]

Thanks for the write ups on your experiences.

I agree you will find that the Direzzas will hold up better than the PSS's (I have Direzza II's on my E30 M3 and PSS's on my 335is) but managing outside front tire wear will be a continuing issue on a stock BMW suspension regardless of the tire unfortunately. Over the last 20 years that I have autox'd and tracked stock BMWs with a couple dozen of different tires including street and r types, outside tire wear is a constant. Tracks with fast in slow out decreasing radius corners really hurt. There just isn't enough negative camber too be had in the stock strut suspension design to keep the tire in the proper position for optimal tire wear.

Depending on the car and tire, I have run inflated tire pressures, rotated tires front to rear, swapped front tires side to side and even swapped tires on the wheels side to side to manage tire wear. If you really want to make sure your tires last and your classing permits it, simply add adjustable camber plates to your M235 and you will save yourself time, money and grief. A $100 investment in an economy tire probe will also help maximize tire life by allowing you to optimize camber and air pressure settings.

[Liquidpaper]

Originally Posted by E30M3Driver

Thanks for the write ups on your experiences.

I agree you will find that the Direzzas will hold up better than the PSS's (I have Direzza II's on my E30 M3 and PSS's on my 335is) but managing outside front tire wear will be a continuing issue on a stock BMW suspension regardless of the tire unfortunately. Over the last 20 years that I have autox'd and tracked stock BMWs with a couple dozen of different tires including street and r types, outside tire wear is a constant. Tracks with fast in slow out decreasing radius corners really hurt. There just isn't enough negative camber too be had in the stock strut suspension design to keep the tire in the proper position for optimal tire wear.

Depending on the car and tire, I have run inflated tire pressures, rotated tires front to rear, swapped front tires side to side and even swapped tires on the wheels side to side to manage tire wear. If you really want to make sure your tires last and your classing permits it, simply add adjustable camber plates to your M235 and you will save yourself time, money and grief. A $100 investment in an economy tire probe will also help maximize tire life by allowing you to optimize camber and air pressure settings.

I agree. I think the Direzzas will be better than the PSS, but they're still going to wear. When I picked up my car last night, my mechanic suggested adjustable camber plates, which I am definitely interested in. Does anyone know if they make any of these for the M235i yet? I did a quick search last night and couldn't really find anything.

Also, yes, I know i need a tire probe/infrared thermometer to check tire temps accurately. Things to consider in the future....

Oh, and for those of you suggesting a separate track setup, I am (i) lazy and (ii) without a garage. Therefore, keeping an extra set of wheels and tires is a bit of a problem for me, although I agree it would be optimal.

[ibimmer954]

I have not had a good experience with PSS on my E46 M3 either. I do not have camber plates. I got big chunks coming out of the PSS at the outer edges of the tire. An instructor at our autocrosses (with camber plates) had chunks coming out of the middle of the tread on PSS. And another student using PSS on an E90 M3 at an HPDE at Buttonwillow had chunks coming out of the sidewall. So I'm done with PSS. Won't be using them anymore.

My favorites are the Dunop Z2 as well. Just got the new Z2 Star Specs installed. Results are fabulous from my first autocross. The tires will be going to Streets of Willow and Big Willow is two weeks!

Previously, I ran with Hankook R-S3s. I did not have any chunking problems and they ran fine. I like the Dunlop Z2s slightly more than the R-S3s. I feel the Z2s give me a little more control. But I'd be happy with R-S3s again as well.

[boomboom22]

Are you going to the HPDE on the 21st-23rd at Willow Springs?

[Liquidpaper]

Originally Posted by faultfracture

Are you going to the HPDE on the 21st-23rd at Willow Springs?

I'd like to, but I think I'm track-dayed out for the time being. Unfortunately, I have other things I have to do that weekend.

However, I believe the Alfa Club is having a weekend event at Willow (Big) on January 17-18, which will probably be my next event. If you haven't done an event with them, they're all great people and put on some really good events. Their TT school was awesome.

Also, I think someone asked what my iDrive brake monitor currently says -- 12k remaining in front, and 16k remaining in rear. Pretty good for stock pads.

[timsev]

You may be expecting too much out of a tire. The PSS isn't advertised as a track tire, because is isn't. If you want a tire that handles track conditions better and takes abuse then there are tires for that obviously, but they are 1. going to wear out quickly, 2. behave poorly in cold or wet weather, 3. are much louder on the street, 4. and cost much more per use.

There isn't one tire that does everything well. That's why there are so many different categories of tire. I would suggest sticking with the PSS and getting camber plates, or getting a second set of wheels/tires and put some dedicated 200UTG tires on them. Tires are a slippery slope and once you make the switch to track tires, you'll just want to go faster and faster.

[Liquidpaper]

Originally Posted by timsev

You may be expecting too much out of a tire. The PSS isn't advertised as a track tire, because is isn't. If you want a tire that handles track conditions better and takes abuse then there are tires for that obviously, but they are 1. going to wear out quickly, 2. behave poorly in cold or wet weather, 3. are much louder on the street, 4. and cost much more per use.

There isn't one tire that does everything well. That's why there are so many different categories of tire. I would suggest sticking with the PSS and getting camber plates, or getting a second set of wheels/tires and put some dedicated 200UTG tires on them. Tires are a slippery slope and once you make the switch to track tires, you'll just want to go faster and faster.

I think the implied advertising on the PSS is misleading. Nevertheless:

1. Well, if this tire lasts more than 5,000 miles and more than 5 track days, its better than the PSS.

2. I live in SoCal - it never rains and never gets below 65 degrees.

3. They really aren't that much louder in my limited experience - a low hum, really. The engine note covers up the noise.

4. Yeah, sure, but I'm willing to sacrifice a little extra money for some convenience.

I plan on getting camber plates anyway, and for the reasons stated above, having a second set of wheels/tires is not really an option at this point (although I do agree it is optimal).

[Cyberdemon]

I don't see why any of those reasons are why you wouldn't want a second set of tires? You'll get everything you can out of the car on the track and don't have to worry about what happens when something goes wrong.

http://www.tirerack.com/accessories/...y=Tire+Storage

Tire Rack sells nice tire bags that you can zip them up and throw them in your back seat and not worry about getting the car dirty.

If you do the math in the long run you'll probably spend less money overall having a dedicated set of track wheels and getting the full life out of your street tires, and you can always sell the rims when you're done with the car.

Another thing to consider: Street tires can be patched in case you run over a nail without much of an issue.

You don't want to have to replace a tire because you get a hole in it on the street, and you also don't want to be running at 120mph with a $2 tire patch job. I learned this the hard way after getting a nail in one of my Toyo R1's when I made the mistake of driving with my track wheels on my Corvette.

[timsev]

Originally Posted by Liquidpaper

I think the implied advertising on the PSS is misleading. Nevertheless:

1. Well, if this tire lasts more than 5,000 miles and more than 5 track days, its better than the PSS.

2. I live in SoCal - it never rains and never gets below 65 degrees.

3. They really aren't that much louder in my limited experience - a low hum, really. The engine note covers up the noise.

4. Yeah, sure, but I'm willing to sacrifice a little extra money for some convenience.

I plan on getting camber plates anyway, and for the reasons stated above, having a second set of wheels/tires is not really an option at this point (although I do agree it is optimal).

If you have the benefit of living in nice weather all the time, that's a consideration. Most people, including myself, don't have that luxury. The tire noise is subjective. I myself live with it throughout the summer months but I just switched over to my PSS/OEM for the winter and I'm amazed at how much quieter and smoother they are now that I've taken off my worn RS3's.

The track tires will take more abuse but be mindful of the outer edges because they are subject to premature wear too since our cars lack negative camber. I had to really overinflate my RS3's to prevent them from rolling over and ruining the outer treads.

[Liquidpaper]

Originally Posted by Cyberdemon

I don't see why any of those reasons are why you wouldn't want a second set of tires? You'll get everything you can out of the car on the track and don't have to worry about what happens when something goes wrong.

http://www.tirerack.com/accessories/...y=Tire+Storage

Tire Rack sells nice tire bags that you can zip them up and throw them in your back seat and not worry about getting the car dirty.

If you do the math in the long run you'll probably spend less money overall having a dedicated set of track wheels and getting the full life out of your street tires, and you can always sell the rims when you're done with the car.

Another thing to consider: Street tires can be patched in case you run over a nail without much of an issue.

You don't want to have to replace a tire because you get a hole in it on the street, and you also don't want to be running at 120mph with a $2 tire patch job. I learned this the hard way after getting a nail in one of my Toyo R1's when I made the mistake of driving with my track wheels on my Corvette.

Those reasons are simply why I'm cool with running an EPT on the street. I'm not opposed to a second set of tires (or wheels) necessarily. I'm just inherently lazy and I'm not quite ready to bite the bullet and get a dedicated set of track wheels/tires. Also, once again, I have no garage, and therefore no good place to store 4 tires/wheels when I am not using them.