Square Setup for Snows on the F8X

[dhoggm3]

So, here is my dialogue with the TireRack about this:

"Question: It would be great to see a Square 18" setup for this car, with 255's all around. Please see what you can do on this."

"Hello Dave,

Thank you for your inquiry, I am happy to assist you.

I was just having this discussion with our engineers on this for another customer. We have found that due to the .6" stagger BMW has put on this car we can't do a square set up. We are having a heck of a time with a winter set up for this car. I wish I had better news but that's where we are at.

Please let me know if you need anything else."

I've used the Turner calculator - very cool tool on their wheel site - and he's right. It likely can't be done.

[gthal]

I have a square 19" setup and Avant Garde has guaranteed the fitment (I have not put them on yet as I'm waiting for tires but was guaranteed they would fit and the offsets would work). 19x8.5 ET15 running 255/35-19 tires... it will be pushed out 14mm further in the front and 15mm in the rear. I've measured and there should be lots of room without sticking out (no different than people running a 15mm spacer on OEM wheels).

I'm not sure why the staggered setup matters on the F8X so much to Tire Rack? The E92 M3 was staggered as well and lots of people ran square set ups. Tire Rack's issue is they don't have a wheel... yet... that clears the brakes and has the right width and offset to work. It isn't that they don't exist... it is Tire Rack doesn't have it

P.S. Try this calculator, it's my favourite ... http://www.rimsntires.com/specspro.jsp

[BMWFanatic2008]

I am interested in 18" winter setup as well. Doesn't have to be square. Hopefully they'll have some 18" wheels for our cars soon.

[BigMacSmallFries]

Originally Posted by dhoggm3

So, here is my dialogue with the TireRack about this:

"Question: It would be great to see a Square 18" setup for this car, with 255's all around. Please see what you can do on this."

"Hello Dave,

Thank you for your inquiry, I am happy to assist you.

I was just having this discussion with our engineers on this for another customer. We have found that due to the .6" stagger BMW has put on this car we can't do a square set up. We are having a heck of a time with a winter set up for this car. I wish I had better news but that's where we are at.

Please let me know if you need anything else."

I've used the Turner calculator - very cool tool on their wheel site - and he's right. It likely can't be done.

Have the exact same problem as you. Using the M359 19" wheels. They are also 9 x 10. 255 has too much stretch for the rear wheels. The only option you have if you plan on using the OEM wheels is to use 265/35/19s square setup. 255 and 275 are too narrow and too wide respectively.

I don't know anyone who has used square 265 winter wheels for a RWD car of this weight. Unfortunately you need wheels the same width. I also don't think it would be a problem using wheels that are 8.5 x 9.5 and running that 255 setup you would like.

A large majority of 18" wheels can't be mounted on 15" rotors. Not even bothering experimenting with that.

[BigMacSmallFries]

Sorting out my decision here.... I doubt more than one or two options will be out in the next couple of months for our cars.

What makes more sense? I'm traveling quite a bit in the winter these next few years including trips for snowboarding with roads that are not plowed well so I decided the LM60 will be the best performance tire for moderate snow, whereas the PA4s/LM32 are great for light snow.

Does it make more sense to get a 265/35/19 square set up with 9x10 wheels or get 255 fronts 265 rears? I mean, I doubt an extra 10mm of width at the front will make much of a difference and it would mean I'd be able to rotate the front and rears half way through their life cycle. However, there is an inch difference in the wheel width and don't know if stretched winter tires really harm the handling or not. Any guidance would be appreciated.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by BigMacSmallFries

Sorting out my decision here.... I doubt more than one or two options will be out in the next couple of months for our cars.

What makes more sense? I'm traveling quite a bit in the winter these next few years including trips for snowboarding with roads that are not plowed well so I decided the LM60 will be the best performance tire for moderate snow, whereas the PA4s/LM32 are great for light snow.

Does it make more sense to get a 265/35/19 square set up with 9x10 wheels or get 255 fronts 265 rears? I mean, I doubt an extra 10mm of width at the front will make much of a difference and it would mean I'd be able to rotate the front and rears half way through their life cycle. However, there is an inch difference in the wheel width and don't know if stretched winter tires really harm the handling or not. Any guidance would be appreciated.

If you expect to be in any amount of snow/ice/slush, I would get the LM60 without a doubt over the PA4.

I'm a big fan of square winter setups because of the ability to rotate tires... but I would try to find a 255 setup on a narrower wheel. But, as you say, 10mm probably doesn't make THAT much difference.

[CanAutM3]

I intend to use my E9X 270M square winter wheel set on my M4.

The offset front and rear should put them almost flush with the stock 19" (front will stick out by 4mm and rear by 5mm).

I hope it will work out.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by gthal

If you expect to be in any amount of snow/ice/slush, I would get the LM60 without a doubt over the PA4.

I'm a big fan of square winter setups because of the ability to rotate tires... but I would try to find a 255 setup on a narrower wheel. But, as you say, 10mm probably doesn't make THAT much difference.

According to this Tire Rack comparison test, the PA4 seems to be the best all around performance winter tire, with the LM-60 in last place...

The Michelin Pilot Alpin PA4 delivers the best balance of performance in this group, driving well on the road plus providing good ice, snow and very good wet traction. The new Pirelli Winter Sottozero 3 and Dunlop SP Winter Sport 4D both have good ice and wet traction and nearly matched the Pilot Alpin PA4's handling out on the road. The Bridgestone Blizzak LM60 takes a more focused approach by also providing good snow and ice traction, but it just doesn't have the wet road grip or clear road handling stability or precision of the other three tires.

For heavy snow, Nokians would be my preferred option.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

According to this Tire Rack comparison test, the PA4 seems to be the best all around performance winter tire, with the LM-60 in last place...



For heavy snow, Nokians would be my preferred option.

I guess it depends on purpose. TireRack doesn't really test the winter tires in snow, slush and ice. IIRC, it is ice rink and simulated testing. No real deep snow, wet snow, slush and ice under snow conditions... in those circumstances the Michelins suck

The PA4 is clearly a better dry pavement tire than the LM-60. However, it's predecessor (PA3) was scary dangerous in wet snow and ice. I sold mine after one month of ownership. Michelin says the PA4 is better by a small margin in these conditions... still less than great IMO.

The LM-60 was WAY better in bad conditions... and worse on dry roads.

I think it comes down to how you intend to use them and what your climate is like. I agree that Nokians are the way to go... hence why I have Hakapelitta R2s coming next week

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by gthal

I guess it depends on purpose. TireRack doesn't really test the winter tires in snow, slush and ice. IIRC, it is ice rink and simulated testing. No real deep snow, wet snow, slush and ice under snow conditions... in those circumstances the Michelins suck

The PA4 is clearly a better dry pavement tire than the LM-60. However, it's predecessor (PA3) was scary dangerous in wet snow and ice. I sold mine after one month of ownership. Michelin says the PA4 is better by a small margin in these conditions... still less than great IMO.

The LM-60 was WAY better in bad conditions... and worse on dry roads.

I think it comes down to how you intend to use them and what your climate is like. I agree that Nokians are the way to go... hence why I have Hakapelitta R2s coming next week

Have you read the article and/or watched the video ?

They did drive and test them in the snow. The PA4 an LM-60 are pretty much on par in the snowy conditions. But the PA4 has the LM-60 beat on the dry and in the wet, which makes it the best all around tire in this test .

[gthal]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

Have you read the article and/or watched the video ?

They did drive and test them in the snow. The PA4 an LM-60 are pretty much on par in the snowy conditions. But the PA4 has the LM-60 beat on the dry and in the wet, which makes it the best all around tire in this test .

I did but I don't buy it based on my ownership experience with the PA3. Unless Michelin DRAMATICALLY improved the snow, ice and slush performance of the PA4 over the PA3, it is no better than an all season in those conditions. The only winter tire that actually scared me was the PA3 so I took them off and sold them immediately. IMO, the LM-60 is WAY better on snow and ice.

Maybe the PA4 improved enough to put them on a level basis? Michelin says something like a 10% improvement over the PA3 and, based on my experience, that would still put it far behind the LM-60 in a snow storm

I also believe that the climate and type of snow matters. Dry, fluffy stuff and the PA3 was OK. Wet, heavy and icy snow and they were useless. My view is Tire Rack doesn't test their tires in more severe conditions but I could be wrong.

Don't get me wrong... in the right conditions the PA3 was great. I just couldn't rely on it if the weather turned and Michelin would have had to make HUGE improvements to make it good enough IMO.

[BigMacSmallFries]

FYI, tirerack comparison tests are done on packed snow and ice. What gthal is saying is correct. You put 10cm of fresh powder on the ground and all of a sudden you're not going anywhere with a slight incline.

Have been running wintersport 3Ds on my E9x M3s for 3 years now. There's all these amazing reviews about them. When there is 10+cm of snow on the ground, the first day I simply can't go anywhere until the other cars pack the snow down for me.

The PA4/4D/Sottozeros are not the greatest. I'm trying to find LM60s as they seem to be the only cross between a true snow tire and performance winter. There doesn't seem to be any other choice out there and the wheels are discounted which stinks. As one pointed out, when it is below zero or wet with no snow, LM60s are nowhere near as good as the PA4s. But some of us don't have a choice.

[swifty]

Ran lm60 265 square set up past winter which had to be one of the worst here in GTA. The tires did a much better job than my previous wintersport 3D and PA3.

[gthal]

Just picked up my winter wheels and mounted winter tires. I'll post pics and details later.

[M4NACE]

interested in seeing those pics. I want to get a set of M510s for my summers. would love to see it on your car. I'm tempted to run winters on stock rims and run 20" 510s or 580s in summer. not sure if that's a good idea. haha

[jewels]

I have purchased 4 wheels (2-19x9.5 & 2-19x8.5) Advanti Drago MGDC & 4 tires (2-275/35ZR-19 & 2 255/35ZR-19) Pirelli Winter Sottozero Serie II 270 XL from the Tire Rack for my M4.
I did not worry about the "Run Flat" deal, if I can't plug it with a trunk kit or call a tow platform...I'll be late for my destination..LOL
Good reviews on this Pirelli tire.

[-JLT-]

i'm running square set-up 19x9.5 wheels, 265-35-19 LM-60 tires, with offset +15mm f/r for winter.

[gthal]

Here is my set up... http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1037506