For whatever it's worth: MB C350 compared to 435i compared to M3

[JoeFromPA]

Hi all,

Just finished an extensive test drive of a Mercedes C350 coupe, 435i coupe with M performance package, and a recently driven M3.

I realize this is somewhat generic information on here, but I want to share some feedback for those who have or have not driven these vehicles and why I'm REALLY pleased I'm going with the new M3.

This was part of the Un4gettable test drive event.

MB C350

I'll imagine for a second everyone knows the basic specs of the C350 coupe. Let me start off by saying the interior is a nice place to be. It has alot of plastics, but the plastics are of a good quality - in fact, many are of a higher quality than the current 435i. I don't care for the layout or the infotainment system, but those things are so personalized anyway that's not really a critique.

Now for the drive: holy crap this thing is a POS. First off, the steering: This is a sporty coupe but the steering is ruinous. The ratio is fine, the steering wheel is decent, but there's just nothing happening between the ground and your hands. There's never any changes. It's light, stays light, doesn't load up, doesn't unload, doesn't vibrate or resist. NOTHING. I wondered if there was an alignment problem because before I pulled out of the dealership I disliked how it left me guessing if it I had turned the steering wheel the right amount for what I wanted.

Second off, the transmission is awful in any sort of sporty driving. In lazy driving it's fine - smooth and well paired to the engine. But step it up to 50% throttle and it just does not know what to do. Literally, it hunts around and zooms for a second then dis-engages the gear you are in and takes a subjective eternity to pick the next gear.

Lest you think I'm being harsh, my 2008 535xit with 101k miles on it is a better transmission at picking and shifting gears.

My 2007 VW Touareg V10 TDI, which is a low-revving torque monster with an indestructible but not very advanced 6-speed auto transmission - better.

In addition, the trans on the Merc does not like letting you pick your own gears. For example, when I hit the upshift selection while going full throttle at 5000rpms, the engine would continue pushing hard until at least 6000-6500rpms before the upshift would be executed. Slowly.

The throttle also seemed to have a mind of it's own with generous throttle over-run WHILE STAYING IN GEAR several times. Seriously? I was once slowing aggressively to a stop sign and the car was still surging ahead.

I don't believe I can effectively comment on the engine because the trans was ruining it for me. All I can say is it's got very nice shove from 2000 rpms for a 3.5 liter v6. It sounds ok. That's it.

Now, putting that aside....the suspension and chassis were excellent and the brakes were superb. The braking was actually better in the Merc (In terms of modulation and feel) than in the 435i. Not worlds different, just better. That being said, the 435i felt like maybe it's brakes were not in the best of shape.

This was a sport packaged equipped MB C350 running about $46k and it sucked.

435i

I'll assume we're all familiar with the basics here. Getting into it from the mercedes shows a few areas that are cheaper (door panels, dash plastic, few others). Seating position for a coupe was better. Better sightlines, more greenhouse, better position for driving yet still comfortable.

The engine and trans is a world above. The N55 has now been out for ~5 years, the 8-speed auto for ~3 years, and I swear BMW did something to both on this model. The trans, when put in sport mode, shifted FAST and FIRM - you felt it. Very gratifying when driving hard. The engine was beastly and loved to wind out. Bit of turbo lag down low, bit softer response there, but really negligible at the end of the day.

The brakes on my model did not feel right. They had a solid inch of soft travel. At first I thought maybe they needed to cool down, but they stayed that way. This was missing BMW's recent 3-series trademark "jerky" brake pedal feel where it bites immediately. Once I dug into them, they operated wonderfully.

Now the steering: If ever something re-affirmed that the M3 was right for me, it was driving the 435i with the M performance kit on it on this model (and M sport package). The steering also stunk here. I honestly did not remember it feeling like this but it's simply lacking in feedback and overly light. I want to share two things that boggled my mind:

1. My 2006 Civic SI, long gone, was the first Honda Civic SI with electric power steering. It cost $20k in 2006. The EPS and steering on THAT car were vastly superior to the 435i.

2. My 2008 535xit, the family hauler, has less sporty but more fulfilling steering than the 435i. Say what?! Yes, while its' steering wheel is thin and it's effort light, there's more coming through the steering wheel in terms of where the tires are at than in BMW's 2014 435i.

...

Now the 435i is a gran touring car. No doubt about it. It's quiet, smooth, lunges forward, and handles a set of back road corners ably.

In my recent weaker moments I have said to myself, "What if I get a 335i or 335xi instead? It'll fit my highway driving better, a bit better MPG, quieter, and of course a solid $18k cheaper equipped the way I want it"

And this test drive convinced me that would be a mistake.

The m3 is not a souped up 435i. They share exterior architecture and a bit too much interior for my tastes, but they are completely different drives. The M3 makes up it's $18k difference in spend as follows:

- Engine: Worth $5k to me
- Steering: Worth $5k to me
- Chassis: Worth $1,000,000,000,000,000 to me

You get my point: The m3 is taking the 335i/435i and truly stripping out everything to do with driving the car and re-doing it with focus and passion. I sound like an M fanboy; whatever.

Despite sharing 50% of the parts, the m3 is truly not a 3-series after driving the finest F32 BMW has to offer.

Really, really happy with my decision and thankful for BMW for setting up the Un4gettable test drive which showed me mercedes stinks, the 3-series is not the enthusiast car, and my choice to drop ~$65k was smart

[Dinh335]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

Hi all,

Just finished an extensive test drive of a Mercedes C350 coupe, 435i coupe with M performance package, and a recently driven M3.

I realize this is somewhat generic information on here, but I want to share some feedback for those who have or have not driven these vehicles and why I'm REALLY pleased I'm going with the new M3.

This was part of the Un4gettable test drive event.

MB C350

I'll imagine for a second everyone knows the basic specs of the C350 coupe. Let me start off by saying the interior is a nice place to be. It has alot of plastics, but the plastics are of a good quality - in fact, many are of a higher quality than the current 435i. I don't care for the layout or the infotainment system, but those things are so personalized anyway that's not really a critique.

Now for the drive: holy crap this thing is a POS. First off, the steering: This is a sporty coupe but the steering is ruinous. The ratio is fine, the steering wheel is decent, but there's just nothing happening between the ground and your hands. There's never any changes. It's light, stays light, doesn't load up, doesn't unload, doesn't vibrate or resist. NOTHING. I wondered if there was an alignment problem because before I pulled out of the dealership I disliked how it left me guessing if it I had turned the steering wheel the right amount for what I wanted.

Second off, the transmission is awful in any sort of sporty driving. In lazy driving it's fine - smooth and well paired to the engine. But step it up to 50% throttle and it just does not know what to do. Literally, it hunts around and zooms for a second then dis-engages the gear you are in and takes a subjective eternity to pick the next gear.

Lest you think I'm being harsh, my 2008 535xit with 101k miles on it is a better transmission at picking and shifting gears.

My 2007 VW Touareg V10 TDI, which is a low-revving torque monster with an indestructible but not very advanced 6-speed auto transmission - better.

In addition, the trans on the Merc does not like letting you pick your own gears. For example, when I hit the upshift selection while going full throttle at 5000rpms, the engine would continue pushing hard until at least 6000-6500rpms before the upshift would be executed. Slowly.

The throttle also seemed to have a mind of it's own with generous throttle over-run WHILE STAYING IN GEAR several times. Seriously? I was once slowing aggressively to a stop sign and the car was still surging ahead.

I don't believe I can effectively comment on the engine because the trans was ruining it for me. All I can say is it's got very nice shove from 2000 rpms for a 3.5 liter v6. It sounds ok. That's it.

Now, putting that aside....the suspension and chassis were excellent and the brakes were superb. The braking was actually better in the Merc (In terms of modulation and feel) than in the 435i. Not worlds different, just better. That being said, the 435i felt like maybe it's brakes were not in the best of shape.

This was a sport packaged equipped MB C350 running about $46k and it sucked.

435i

I'll assume we're all familiar with the basics here. Getting into it from the mercedes shows a few areas that are cheaper (door panels, dash plastic, few others). Seating position for a coupe was better. Better sightlines, more greenhouse, better position for driving yet still comfortable.

The engine and trans is a world above. The N55 has now been out for ~5 years, the 8-speed auto for ~3 years, and I swear BMW did something to both on this model. The trans, when put in sport mode, shifted FAST and FIRM - you felt it. Very gratifying when driving hard. The engine was beastly and loved to wind out. Bit of turbo lag down low, bit softer response there, but really negligible at the end of the day.

The brakes on my model did not feel right. They had a solid inch of soft travel. At first I thought maybe they needed to cool down, but they stayed that way. This was missing BMW's recent 3-series trademark "jerky" brake pedal feel where it bites immediately. Once I dug into them, they operated wonderfully.

Now the steering: If ever something re-affirmed that the M3 was right for me, it was driving the 435i with the M performance kit on it on this model (and M sport package). The steering also stunk here. I honestly did not remember it feeling like this but it's simply lacking in feedback and overly light. I want to share two things that boggled my mind:

1. My 2006 Civic SI, long gone, was the first Honda Civic SI with electric power steering. It cost $20k in 2006. The EPS and steering on THAT car were vastly superior to the 435i.

2. My 2008 535xit, the family hauler, has less sporty but more fulfilling steering than the 435i. Say what?! Yes, while its' steering wheel is thin and it's effort light, there's more coming through the steering wheel in terms of where the tires are at than in BMW's 2014 435i.

...

Now the 435i is a gran touring car. No doubt about it. It's quiet, smooth, lunges forward, and handles a set of back road corners ably.

In my recent weaker moments I have said to myself, "What if I get a 335i or 335xi instead? It'll fit my highway driving better, a bit better MPG, quieter, and of course a solid $18k cheaper equipped the way I want it"

And this test drive convinced me that would be a mistake.

The m3 is not a souped up 435i. They share exterior architecture and a bit too much interior for my tastes, but they are completely different drives. The M3 makes up it's $18k difference in spend as follows:

- Engine: Worth $5k to me
- Steering: Worth $5k to me
- Chassis: Worth $1,000,000,000,000,000 to me

You get my point: The m3 is taking the 335i/435i and truly stripping out everything to do with driving the car and re-doing it with focus and passion. I sound like an M fanboy; whatever.

Despite sharing 50% of the parts, the m3 is truly not a 3-series after driving the finest F32 BMW has to offer.

Really, really happy with my decision and thankful for BMW for setting up the Un4gettable test drive which showed me mercedes stinks, the 3-series is not the enthusiast car, and my choice to drop ~$65k was smart

did the 4 series have the M perf suspension as well or just the visual stuff (lip, etc etc)? curious as to see a comparison between that and the m3 suspension. i have driven the m3 (rides amazing) but not an f30 with mperf sups.

I am confident the m3 is way better but curious as to how they compare nonetheless.

[JoeFromPA]

IIRC, the sport package and M-sport package on the F32 are actually the same suspension. There is no "m suspension" for the f30 besides the regular sport suspension.

However, there IS an M-adaptive suspension for the F30 which is an adjustable suspension different from the M3. Here's my comparison:

The F32 M-sport rides on 18" wheels to the M3's 19" wheels, so bear in mind that this is a massive reduction in sidewall tire height. People think "Oh it's just 1"" but in reality we are talking about reducing the rubber able to flex in the tire by like 33%. That's alot less compliance.

The M3 in comfort mode rides as smooth as the 435i in sport mode. And the 435i in comfort mode is not that much different from tha 435i in sport mode, if that makes sense.

The chassis on the M3 is much more solid (and the F32 is already an incredibly solid chassis) and you get more noise, but the true ride quality is only slightly stiffer in the M3.

The ride itself is a good amount more volume and sound and noise in the M3 vs. the 435i. It's not LOUD per se, so much as much more present from a variety of sources.

[Dinh335]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

IIRC, the sport package and M-sport package on the F32 are actually the same suspension. There is no "m suspension" for the f30 besides the regular sport suspension.

.

yes the sport and Msport sups are identical, but there is an OEM M performance suspension (at least for the f30 sedan) - so i was wondering if it had that on it as it's a half step up from stock Msport sups.

thanks for the review!

[khanyam4]

I guess you get what you pay for.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

MB C350
It has alot of plastics, but the plastics are of a good quality
Now for the drive: holy crap this thing is a POS

I broke my no test drive rule to test drive an MB SLK55 which also has a "bespoke" engine (the '6.3' v8)

I thought everything was a piece of crap. the carbon interior sucked, the plastics sucked, the controls sucked ...

It wasn't that fast or at least it didn't feel that fast. the shitbox transmission was like a beta version of SMG and the steering column felt like it was foam pool noodle.

And the sound? what sound?

[kinimod]

I drove C63 AMG extensively -- my impression after 4 hours in the car on mountain roads was that it is quite boring (compared to M5 and M6 that I drove the same way) and lacks the thrill.

Also the transmission was just awful compared to BMW's DCT.

Yet after cooling down, couple of weeks later and thinking back, I now remember it as a super smooth power delivery (huge naturally aspirated engine), raw sound and solid-feel hydraulic steering. There is some character to C63, maybe the pureness of it. But of course it's from a different era.