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      06-22-2022, 07:43 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikkagtr View Post
Are we talking about catfish Camaros or the current LT1 Camaros
Because even my grandma can drive that thing pretty quickly around a track
If 2 cars are within 8/10ths of each other I would agree
But an ND Miata with a pro driving it will still not be faster than the current Camaro SS with an amateur driving it
That scenario is 10% driver and 90% car
On a road course, that Miata wins. Sorry, but that is the truth
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      06-22-2022, 08:09 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Donatello. View Post
On a road course, that Miata wins. Sorry, but that is the truth
That's also very track dependent.

A big power track is still going to leave an ND behind.
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      06-23-2022, 06:53 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox View Post
That's also very track dependent.

A big power track is still going to leave an ND behind.
Until the twisties.

My favorite historics race was at Lime Rock Park. The class had a bunch of original minis and Shelby GT350s and lap after lap the Shelbys would barrel by the minis on the straight and the minis would be back in front by the time the left hander came up.

Rinse, repeat. Was awesome.

But yeah, there are tracks where the straight will overcome that disadvantage. I imagine even Road Atlanta's is long enough but by the time you're back on it you've probably been fighting them again.
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      06-23-2022, 10:40 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox View Post
That's also very track dependent.

A big power track is still going to leave an ND behind.
Yes, but the great thing about a light good handling car is it tends to maximize the fun while minimizing the consequences on a short track/autoX. That's why a lot of decent cars aren't truly exciting, because you have to get on a real big track for them to shine. There are a few exceptions, but if you care about maximizing fun, the highest HP isn't always the way.
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      06-23-2022, 10:45 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by RM7 View Post
Yes, but the great thing about a light good handling car is it tends to maximize the fun while minimizing the consequences on a short track/autoX. That's why a lot of decent cars aren't truly exciting, because you have to get on a real big track for them to shine. There are a few exceptions, but if you care about maximizing fun, the highest HP isn't always the way.
I agree. I've only ever tracked Miata's or sport bikes.

In a Miata, getting a point-by from a car with 2-3x the power is always fun.
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      06-23-2022, 11:00 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox View Post
That's also very track dependent.

A big power track is still going to leave an ND behind.
I guess if the track was long and full of lots of long straights and lots of laps. But most tracks aren't like that. The Miata is basically full power all the time. Lightweight and tiny makes a big difference.

I was dead set on getting an ND2 Miata RF as a fun car but the car was 5% too small for me inside plus the power of my M235 has corrupted me. While the ND2 Miata is a relatively quick car (mid/low 14s in the 1/4 mile), it felt too slow for my taste. It was also too quiet. If it had some old school Honda VTEC induction noise, it may have helped confuse my mind. I have two buddies with NB Miatas with basic Flying Miata turbo kits and the car in those cars is just perfect. 2400lbs and 200whp/wtq. Those cars are blast to drive but still too small for me. Thus, I'll be getting a 2003/2004 C5 Z06 as my track/fun car. It's my more size and power.
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      06-23-2022, 01:31 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donatello. View Post
On a road course, that Miata wins. Sorry, but that is the truth
Mk4 ND Miata Laguna Seca time 1:48.47
Camaro SS 1LE 1:37.78
I guess the facts don't align with your reality
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      06-23-2022, 01:56 PM   #52
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I've tracked my old Miata plenty. I don't think there are any turns it had higher speeds than a modern Camaro.

And isn't the Jag an F Type and the F Pace is an SUV?
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      06-23-2022, 03:13 PM   #53
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I was gonna say, honestly, some aggrandizing of the Miata. Absolutely fine track car, no contest fun for the $$ but a Camaro 1LE? Unless it's NOTHING but super tight corners, the 1LE will eat it alive.
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      06-23-2022, 03:39 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
I was gonna say, honestly, some aggrandizing of the Miata. Absolutely fine track car, no contest fun for the $$ but a Camaro 1LE? Unless it's NOTHING but super tight corners, the 1LE will eat it alive.
I dunno man, I have no idea why ppl like cars such as Camaro, Chargers, etc. Sure they have impressive HP numbers but those things are the size of tanks, even larger than many sedans, and probably heavier too. Not very sophisticated in looks or tech, just brutish. Crazily excessive.

Give me a MX-5 any day instead of those behemoths.
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      06-23-2022, 03:46 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
I dunno man, I have no idea why ppl like cars such as Camaro, Chargers, etc. Sure they have impressive HP numbers but those things are the size of tanks, even larger than many sedans, and probably heavier too. Not very sophisticated in looks or tech, just brutish. Crazily excessive.

Give me a MX-5 any day instead of those behemoths.
For the 1LE anyway, E-diff, magna shocks, etc.

There is a reason they are such monsters.
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      06-23-2022, 03:47 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikkagtr View Post
Mk4 ND Miata Laguna Seca time 1:48.47
Camaro SS 1LE 1:37.78
I guess the facts don't align with your reality
To be fair, they were saying a Pro in a Miata vs an amateur in the SS 1LE.

Which in my mind is a silly comparison.
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      06-23-2022, 03:58 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox View Post
For the 1LE anyway, E-diff, magna shocks, etc.

There is a reason they are such monsters.
Ya, I'm sure there's some tech and ofc this is just my preference so ppl who love muscle cars don't jump me LOL.

I personally don't get these crazy, monster-sized excessive behemoths. Prefer small sportscars and subscribe to the Colin Chapman philosophy.
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      06-23-2022, 05:00 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
Ya, I'm sure there's some tech and ofc this is just my preference so ppl who love muscle cars don't jump me LOL.

I personally don't get these crazy, monster-sized excessive behemoths. Prefer small sportscars and subscribe to the Colin Chapman philosophy.
If you haven't driven one it's hard to get. I know what the numbers say for weight, but they definitely hide it very well.

I really wanted a SS 1LE before I ordered my BRZ, but I couldn't justify the price.
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      06-23-2022, 05:09 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox View Post
If you haven't driven one it's hard to get. I know what the numbers say for weight, but they definitely hide it very well.

I really wanted a SS 1LE before I ordered my BRZ, but I couldn't justify the price.
Sometimes one just knows, like if you're straight and wonder about gay sex or vice versa lol. The point is not needing to hide it. That's the very point.
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      06-23-2022, 07:56 PM   #60
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Sometimes one just knows, like if you're straight and wonder about gay sex or vice versa lol. The point is not needing to hide it. That's the very point.
Quoted for posterity.
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      06-23-2022, 09:03 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
I dunno man, I have no idea why ppl like cars such as Camaro, Chargers, etc. Sure they have impressive HP numbers but those things are the size of tanks, even larger than many sedans, and probably heavier too. Not very sophisticated in looks or tech, just brutish. Crazily excessive.

Give me a MX-5 any day instead of those behemoths.
You can't compare a charger to a 1LE Camaro, it's a proper damn (the Camaro).
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      06-23-2022, 10:46 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
I've tracked my old Miata plenty. I don't think there are any turns it had higher speeds than a modern Camaro.

And isn't the Jag an F Type and the F Pace is an SUV?
I autoX a lot, it is common for Miatas to have higher cornering speeds than Camaros...and about everything else. On my side, the Camaro doesn't suck at it, it's quite good, but it's quite good at everything. Still, it's not as nimble as a Miata obviously and those tend to dominate the smaller courses.

And the thing that's fun about all of that is you get to drive a car at 9 or 10/10ths. Not at 9 or 10/10ths speed, but in terms of handling, grip, braking, etc. and it's a blast. We have bigger AutoX courses too where you do get to wring it out a bit and the faster cars (that still need to handle really well) do show a little faster, but so much of these races is carrying speed through the turns and the whole point of the course designs is to make challenging courses.
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Last edited by RM7; 06-23-2022 at 10:53 PM..
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      06-23-2022, 10:52 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
I dunno man, I have no idea why ppl like cars such as Camaro, Chargers, etc. Sure they have impressive HP numbers but those things are the size of tanks, even larger than many sedans, and probably heavier too. Not very sophisticated in looks or tech, just brutish. Crazily excessive.

Give me a MX-5 any day instead of those behemoths.
Not in the same league. You must not know much about these cars. We have had Chargers and Challengers show up and try to race...it's pretty funny to watch, the cars are just too big, too heavy, without enough rubber, and so on. Even the wide-body version with the big fat tires.

1LE is an absolute monster on a road course (and any driving situation that requires handling). It's 911 S fast easily. The ZL1 1LE is GT3 fast.

While yes, just about any modern production car is heavier than a Miata..., a 1LE is simply a Camaro with enough rubber, chassis, suspension and brakes to handle that 455hp.

I respect the Miata and plenty of other cars that come out and can be driven fast around courses. I've seen quite a few that looked the look, but were downright terrible when driven at the limits...and a few that are surprisingly fast that you wouldn't think of initially.
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      06-23-2022, 11:42 PM   #64
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Ya guys, I admittedly dunno much about all those muscle cars in general. I just don't see the point having a crazily heavy car and then it must be compensated by an overzealous engine just to make it handle as good as a MX-5. Then again, I've never cared much for straight-line speed.
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      06-23-2022, 11:53 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
Ya guys, I admittedly dunno much about all those muscle cars in general. I just don't see the point having a crazily heavy car and then it must be compensated by an overzealous engine just to make it handle as good as a MX-5. Then again, I've never cared much for straight-line speed.
You are still doing it. A 1LE is not a straight-line car. A Miata is not either. Do you think a C8 Stingray is?
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      06-23-2022, 11:57 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
I dunno man, I have no idea why ppl like cars such as Camaro, Chargers, etc. Sure they have impressive HP numbers but those things are the size of tanks, even larger than many sedans, and probably heavier too. Not very sophisticated in looks or tech, just brutish. Crazily excessive.

Give me a MX-5 any day instead of those behemoths.
Apples and oranges. The Charger/Challenger is a 20+ year old platform with newer engines. Cool cars, but they're boats and with even the best drivers they struggle to put the power down. The Camaro rides on an incredibly well-engineered platform that can put down absolutely bonkers numbers in the hands of a competent driver. Is it a stunningly beautiful car? Not exactly. Is it a lightweight? No. Does it have the nicest interior? No. But if any automaker from Europe or Asia made a car like the current Camaro, at the same price with the same power, everyone would think it was one of the greatest sports cars ever.

To put in perspective how fast a modern Camaro is, look at Car and Driver's annual Lightning Lap. 2017 Camaro SS 1LE ran a 2:54.8, a 2012 Lexus LFA did 2:55.1. 2014 Ferrari F12 did a 2:50.8, 2015 Camaro Z/28 (previous gen) did 2:50.9. 2019 Camaro ZL1 1LE ran a 2:45.0. 2018 Ferrari 488 GTB ran a 2:45.1. These are monumentally fast cars for the money and don't get nearly the respect they deserve because they're just "muscle cars" in the eyes of many.
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