BMW
X1 / X2
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
BIMMERPOST Universal Forums General BMW News and Cars Discussion M Sport package considered an "M" car?

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      04-07-2021, 05:13 AM   #111
HighlandPete
Lieutenant General
6659
Rep
15,858
Posts

Drives: BMW F11 535i Touring
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Scotland, Highland Region

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///MPhatic View Post
So it looks like this.

240 = standard road car.
M240 = standard road car with increased performance by virtue of higher performance M parts.
M2 = M-Car

A real M-Car turns out to be ANY collection of M bits that BMW decides makes it an M-Car, regardless of what anyone else says, since they invented it.
240 = standard road car.

I'd add... when we see "M-Sport", it's just a trim level.
Appreciate 0
      04-07-2021, 05:57 AM   #112
srbs73
Major
srbs73's Avatar
United Kingdom
542
Rep
1,139
Posts

Drives: BMW i4 M50
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
240 = standard road car.

I'd add... when we see "M-Sport", it's just a trim level.
Depends what you mean by standard road car. the Mxxx cars sit between the full fat M cars and the rest of the range which may have the M-Sport trim.

I think they hold their own place, particularly as in average conditions they can outpace the comparable M cars to 60mph (i.e. non-competition or 5 / 8 series variants which are well over £100k).
Appreciate 0
      04-07-2021, 06:15 AM   #113
HighlandPete
Lieutenant General
6659
Rep
15,858
Posts

Drives: BMW F11 535i Touring
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Scotland, Highland Region

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by srbs73 View Post
Depends what you mean by standard road car. the Mxxx cars sit between the full fat M cars and the rest of the range which may have the M-Sport trim..
I'm thinking something like a 'standard' F30 340i M-Sport. A different car altogether than a G20 M340i.

The M-sort trim is also market influenced. Here in the UK, for example, the F30 340i was only available in M-Sport trim. Many engine levels are available in different trims. Same key 'mechanicals', can be optioned. Like having an SE model with M-sport suspension and sport seats. Therefore a very similar drive in the SE, (identical performance) to the M-sport trim level.

I view cars like the current M340i as an "M-Lite".
Appreciate 0
      04-07-2021, 07:11 AM   #114
eljay
Colonel
1423
Rep
2,116
Posts

Drives: ///M + E91
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NS

iTrader: (1)

The real deal will always be a complete sports car package.
Many manufacturers sprinkle their sports car model appeal down to other models. Some with real performance upgrades and some are just cosmetic.

M-Sport
S-Line
R-Design
F-Sport
AMG Line
etc.
Appreciate 1
540iSUP703.00
      04-07-2021, 07:35 AM   #115
///MPhatic
The Seeker
///MPhatic's Avatar
13539
Rep
3,206
Posts

Drives: OG M2 • Exige
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: USA

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
240 = standard road car.

I'd add... when we see "M-Sport", it's just a trim level.
Don't the M-Sport cars have the same brakes as the OG M2? Much stronger than what's needed for the road I think. But as to the rest of the bits, I can't speak to, as I don't now what they are. But if the bits actually add performance, then M-Sport actually means something.

I think back to when, with Honda, "Si" was just trim (seats, badges, etc), and it was pretty sad. Gone are those days, thankfully.
Appreciate 0
      04-07-2021, 08:20 AM   #116
rmanm4
Lieutenant
rmanm4's Avatar
Canada
871
Rep
433
Posts

Drives: BMW M4 F82
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2020 BMW M4  [0.00]
I've always felt a real ///M car is a car with a real M engine. M engines to me are only the ones that can make 100hp/Litre naturally! I own a F82 M4 now but miss my E46 M3 with that free spirited S54 engine. Turbo is nice and all for that initial torque and fuel efficiency but it's missing the soul that the S54 had.
Appreciate 3
      04-07-2021, 08:57 AM   #117
HighlandPete
Lieutenant General
6659
Rep
15,858
Posts

Drives: BMW F11 535i Touring
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Scotland, Highland Region

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///MPhatic View Post
Don't the M-Sport cars have the same brakes as the OG M2? Much stronger than what's needed for the road I think. But as to the rest of the bits, I can't speak to, as I don't now what they are. But if the bits actually add performance, then M-Sport actually means something.
It is difficult to keep up with some of the changes and standard fit/options across the models/years.

I know in the UK some M-Sport models, in a particular line-up, would have options for upgraded brakes, or packages with upgrades. Some originally optioned items can become standard fitment over time.

What also adds some confusion, is the Mxxx models are often referred to by BMW as BMW M Performance (models) Automobiles.

Then we have the M Performance Parts catalogues, allowing a 'mix and match' array of options, which can be added to standard cars.

No wonder users can get so up tight about their specific car, once we move away from the obvious 'full fat' M-cars.
Appreciate 0
      04-07-2021, 09:20 AM   #118
///MPhatic
The Seeker
///MPhatic's Avatar
13539
Rep
3,206
Posts

Drives: OG M2 • Exige
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: USA

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
No wonder users can get so up tight about their specific car, once we move away from the obvious 'full fat' M-cars.
It's inclusion, after all. BMW is as much of a performance brand as it is a luxury brand to many, so if they can't quite afford the M, these little bits help them feel included. I get it. But yeah, I wish there was either M, or not-M.
Appreciate 1
      04-07-2021, 09:23 AM   #119
ramman434
Lieutenant
United_States
710
Rep
538
Posts

Drives: F30 335i
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL

iTrader: (0)

Sadly was headed back to work yesterday from lunch, on I-95 S between McNab & Commercial in Fort Lauderdale. Passed a black F10 535i w/black wheels and blacked out badges, with a really sweet ///M decal on the base of the trunk, just to the left of the passenger side tail light.

Made me shake my head in disgust.
__________________
'07 Montego Blue/Saddle Brown E92 335i - 6spd. - SOLD
'16 Carbon Black Metallic F10 535i M-Sport - TOTALED 11/21/21
'13 Black Sapphire Metallic F30 335i M-Sport - unknown charge pipe, MSport Exhaust, 20" 405M wheels, $61k MSRP, CF M4 Mirror caps & Spoiler, NGK plugs, Dinan Coils, BMS intake
Appreciate 0
      04-07-2021, 09:33 AM   #120
dscabra
First Lieutenant
dscabra's Avatar
4945
Rep
378
Posts

Drives: GMC Denali
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Colorado

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///MPhatic View Post
Don't the M-Sport cars have the same brakes as the OG M2? Much stronger than what's needed for the road I think. But as to the rest of the bits, I can't speak to, as I don't now what they are. But if the bits actually add performance, then M-Sport actually means something.

I think back to when, with Honda, "Si" was just trim (seats, badges, etc), and it was pretty sad. Gone are those days, thankfully.
Again, please excuse my general ignorance when it comes to the overall BMW lineage. I've owned just three BMWs:

2012 F30 (328i with very minimal options)
2015 F30 (328i) Sport Line (heavily optioned)
2018 G30 (M550i) Fully optioned

My understanding of what an M-Sport is, is that it's a package that can be added to most cars that is primarily an appearance package. Yes, it includes the bigger brakes, but other than that, no real performance upgrades.

My 2015 Sport Line F30 did not have the M-Sport package, but rather Sport brakes and a Sport mode for the transmission. It had a bit thicker steering wheel than my first car and some nice Sport Line wheels.

My 2018 M550i is referred to as an M-Performance car, which has all the M-Sport appearance goodies along with some added performance (the twin-turbo 4.4L V8 being the most significant of those).

Having come from a long stretch of Mercedes cars, I get the sensitivity of the owners of the top tier badges like M and AMG. My last Mercedes was an SL-500 with "AMG package". It was NOT an AMG car, but simply had a lot of appearance goodies from the AMG cars. It did not have any AMG badges anywhere on the car. This, is a distinction I find interesting between Mercedes and BMW. Mercedes doesn't use the AMG badges except on the AMG cars, whereas BMW is freely using the M on all sorts of stuff. It's no wonder that many BMW owners can't distinguish the products.

I'm sure the M5 owners in 2018 were livid when the 2018 M550i was faster than the M5 that year.

True M car owners should just relax and know that their cars are incredible racing machines. You have the opportunity to embarrass the "inferior" M-labeled cars at every stop light.
Appreciate 2
Vivek.1363.50
540iSUP703.00
      04-07-2021, 10:45 AM   #121
srbs73
Major
srbs73's Avatar
United Kingdom
542
Rep
1,139
Posts

Drives: BMW i4 M50
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///MPhatic View Post
It's inclusion, after all. BMW is as much of a performance brand as it is a luxury brand to many, so if they can't quite afford the M, these little bits help them feel included. I get it. But yeah, I wish there was either M, or not-M.
Not just about cost. I wanted a xDrive Touring so no option yet. I'll look at the M3 Touring when it's out next year and will consider as long as the comfort adaptive isn't too stiff!
Appreciate 0
      04-07-2021, 11:05 AM   #122
///MPhatic
The Seeker
///MPhatic's Avatar
13539
Rep
3,206
Posts

Drives: OG M2 • Exige
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: USA

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dscabra View Post
Again, please excuse my general ignorance when it comes to the overall BMW lineage. I've owned just three BMWs:
You've got me beat, so I'd say your word is better than mine on the subject for sure.
Appreciate 0
      04-07-2021, 11:44 AM   #123
smokinHawk
623lb puller
United_States
26
Rep
199
Posts

Drives: 2017 340I XDrive MT Black
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: ohio

iTrader: (2)

I've always thought ///M was for manual
So my car has a manual so M car right.......
Appreciate 0
      04-07-2021, 12:06 PM   #124
HighlandPete
Lieutenant General
6659
Rep
15,858
Posts

Drives: BMW F11 535i Touring
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Scotland, Highland Region

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dscabra View Post
... This, is a distinction I find interesting between Mercedes and BMW. Mercedes doesn't use the AMG badges except on the AMG cars, whereas BMW is freely using the M on all sorts of stuff. It's no wonder that many BMW owners can't distinguish the products.
Is that the case in your market? In the UK we get the AMG Line, a bit like using the M-Sport trim & options.

https://www.mercedes-benzsouthwest.c...he-difference/
Appreciate 0
      04-07-2021, 12:19 PM   #125
GuidoK
#buildnotbought
GuidoK's Avatar
10473
Rep
4,815
Posts

Drives: Z4 3.0i ESS TS2+
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Tinkering in the garage

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacoma View Post

For cars, the only true M models start with the letter M followed by a number, like M2, M3, M4, M5, M8. That's it.
The 1M being the exception I presume
__________________
Z4 3.0i | ESS TS2+ supercharger | Quaife ATB LSD | Brembo/BMW performance BBK front/rear | Schrick FI cams | Schmiedmann headers+cats | Powerflex/strongflex PU bushings | Vibra-technics engine mounts | H&R anti rollbars | KW V3 coilovers/KW camber plates | Sachs race engineering clutch | tons of custom sh#t
Appreciate 0
      04-07-2021, 12:21 PM   #126
dscabra
First Lieutenant
dscabra's Avatar
4945
Rep
378
Posts

Drives: GMC Denali
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Colorado

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
Is that the case in your market? In the UK we get the AMG Line, a bit like using the M-Sport trim & options.

https://www.mercedes-benzsouthwest.c...he-difference/
It's been a few years since I was keeping track of the MB cars, so it may very well be that they are following the same practices globally that you are seeing.

Much like the M purists, to me an AMG means that the engine is hand-built by one person. In the end, it's not about the badge, but what the badge represents that matters.
Appreciate 0
      04-07-2021, 12:28 PM   #127
GuidoK
#buildnotbought
GuidoK's Avatar
10473
Rep
4,815
Posts

Drives: Z4 3.0i ESS TS2+
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Tinkering in the garage

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LOW4LYF View Post
How about E31 850CSI or E24 M635CSI ??? Not a real M car?
Absolutely

There is also an E12 5 series M535i (m90 engine) that belongs in the list. As it dates back all the way to 1980

And imho the bmw 2002 turbo and E9 CSL also belong in that list as the granddaddys
__________________
Z4 3.0i | ESS TS2+ supercharger | Quaife ATB LSD | Brembo/BMW performance BBK front/rear | Schrick FI cams | Schmiedmann headers+cats | Powerflex/strongflex PU bushings | Vibra-technics engine mounts | H&R anti rollbars | KW V3 coilovers/KW camber plates | Sachs race engineering clutch | tons of custom sh#t
Appreciate 0
      04-07-2021, 01:27 PM   #128
jmg
Lieutenant General
jmg's Avatar
18493
Rep
14,085
Posts

Drives: G82 M4C X-Drive
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2022 G82 M4C X-Drive  [9.83]
2018 F80 M3 CS  [9.83]
2019 i3 BEV  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by srbs73 View Post
I think they hold their own place, particularly as in average conditions they can outpace the comparable M cars to 60mph
That misses the entire point of an M car. It's not for average conditions, it's for extraordinary conditions. Going fast to 60 is also not extraordinary. You can engineer almost any car to go fast to 60. All you need is power and traction. Where the extraordinary engineering happens is handling dynamics and consistency lap after lap after lap after lap. No matter how hard you push your car on the street, you will not even get 75% of the abuse these cars take on the track. It's either too unsafe, or doesn't require the driver to skirt the edge for tenths of a second. This is why even less powerful cars with slower 0-60 times can pass other more powerful cars. People keep thinking a fast 0-60 time makes their car a sports car until they get to the track and get embarassed by Miatas.

So yes, I think they hold their own place... on the street. With some modifications they can hold their place on the track as well, but then you are sacrificing the daily driveability that the car excels and still with compromises compared to it's M counterpart.
__________________

2022 G82///M4 Competition X-Drive - KW-HAS, EBC Bluestuff, Millway Race Camber Plates, Cup2 Connect*, PSI High Flow Midpipe, Lightweight Front Lip, M Perf Flow Through Wing
Previous • 2018 F80 ///M3 CS • 2016 F80 ///M3
IG: Raging_G82
Appreciate 2
      04-07-2021, 02:56 PM   #129
srbs73
Major
srbs73's Avatar
United Kingdom
542
Rep
1,139
Posts

Drives: BMW i4 M50
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
That misses the entire point of an M car. It's not for average conditions, it's for extraordinary conditions. Going fast to 60 is also not extraordinary. You can engineer almost any car to go fast to 60. All you need is power and traction. Where the extraordinary engineering happens is handling dynamics and consistency lap after lap after lap after lap. No matter how hard you push your car on the street, you will not even get 75% of the abuse these cars take on the track. It's either too unsafe, or doesn't require the driver to skirt the edge for tenths of a second. This is why even less powerful cars with slower 0-60 times can pass other more powerful cars. People keep thinking a fast 0-60 time makes their car a sports car until they get to the track and get embarassed by Miatas.

So yes, I think they hold their own place... on the street. With some modifications they can hold their place on the track as well, but then you are sacrificing the daily driveability that the car excels and still with compromises compared to it's M counterpart.
Not disagreeing. As someone else said, they sit in a spot in between M cars and the rest of the range. And for me, who will never take my own car on a track, in many ways it’s the most sensible option. An M car restricted to under 70mph in normal conditions doesn’t really get the opportunity to show its strengths.
Appreciate 3
jmg18493.00
Dagamus_NM1639.50
      04-07-2021, 04:35 PM   #130
jmg
Lieutenant General
jmg's Avatar
18493
Rep
14,085
Posts

Drives: G82 M4C X-Drive
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2022 G82 M4C X-Drive  [9.83]
2018 F80 M3 CS  [9.83]
2019 i3 BEV  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by srbs73 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
That misses the entire point of an M car. It's not for average conditions, it's for extraordinary conditions. Going fast to 60 is also not extraordinary. You can engineer almost any car to go fast to 60. All you need is power and traction. Where the extraordinary engineering happens is handling dynamics and consistency lap after lap after lap after lap. No matter how hard you push your car on the street, you will not even get 75% of the abuse these cars take on the track. It's either too unsafe, or doesn't require the driver to skirt the edge for tenths of a second. This is why even less powerful cars with slower 0-60 times can pass other more powerful cars. People keep thinking a fast 0-60 time makes their car a sports car until they get to the track and get embarassed by Miatas.

So yes, I think they hold their own place... on the street. With some modifications they can hold their place on the track as well, but then you are sacrificing the daily driveability that the car excels and still with compromises compared to it's M counterpart.
Not disagreeing. As someone else said, they sit in a spot in between M cars and the rest of the range. And for me, who will never take my own car on a track, in many ways it’s the most sensible option. An M car restricted to under 70mph in normal conditions doesn’t really get the opportunity to show its strengths.
Agreed. Different driver, different needs. What's somewhat annoying is when a non-M driver says their car is "better" an M car on the street because it's just as fast or faster to 60 but is more comfortable for daily driving. It ignores the fact that other drivers have more demanding needs. At sub 4 seconds for both M cars and M performance cars, do we really care who wins a 0-60 when, like you said, we don't even really have that opportunity to show it's strengths on public roads.

In the end though, it just seems to be about bragging rights for something they can't really use unless they are breaking the law. It just seems a bit meaningless to me.
__________________

2022 G82///M4 Competition X-Drive - KW-HAS, EBC Bluestuff, Millway Race Camber Plates, Cup2 Connect*, PSI High Flow Midpipe, Lightweight Front Lip, M Perf Flow Through Wing
Previous • 2018 F80 ///M3 CS • 2016 F80 ///M3
IG: Raging_G82
Appreciate 3
      04-10-2021, 12:24 PM   #131
OSee
Captain
934
Rep
766
Posts

Drives: M2 Sold
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Laguna Beach, CA

iTrader: (0)

The BMW enthusiast world collectively gasped when BMW announced that M-Sport would become more than just a trim. And on exhale, in chorus, “the M is just for marketing now!”

I’m seeing a lot of defenders in here now. So what’s changed that perception? Any specific car? M240? M550? M340? M440?
Appreciate 0
      04-10-2021, 12:36 PM   #132
OSee
Captain
934
Rep
766
Posts

Drives: M2 Sold
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Laguna Beach, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by para38super View Post
I would never remove them. I also own Challenger. Would I remove RT or SRT because I don't have the hellcat engine, definitely not. Dodge labels them depending on the specs. Nobody complains about a Durango having the badge. I guess Dodge guys are not as uptight about a badge.
Not the same thing.

If Dodge started a Hellcat sports trim and started slapping the Hellcat badge all over every Dodge model with 20 inch wheels and a factory tuned 6 cylinder the “Dodge guys” with ‘real’ Hellcats would be up in arms.

American car buyers are some of the biggest badge worshippers on the planet. The fact that you call them “Dodge guys” is very revealing.

Last edited by OSee; 04-10-2021 at 12:41 PM..
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:50 PM.




xbimmers
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST