Roll-Call: NJMP 6/20-21 with Nasa/PDA??

[kieranlavin]

Originally Posted by lucid

I just got back home after an 8 hour drive (towing my car).

You're freaking crazy and I'll bet you're at work today too?

The weekend was interesting. Lots of rain. Went back and forth between slicks and PS2s.

That was a total pain. Saturday just completely sucked. I spent more time indoors or in my friend's trailer hiding from the rain than anywhere else!

I finally felt like I drove this track reasonably fast in the last session today (too bad you didn't hang around for that one RJ--wide open track with a few fast cars on it).

Jay did say you were ABUSING that poor car of your's I was speaking to him at the end of the day and he's like "yup, he LOVES those brakes and they work amazingly" He said he got into an M Coupe afterward and the brakes didn't feel like they were working. As for open track at the end of the day, that's usually the case. The final session of the day a lot of people don't hang around for because they have a long drive. So it winds up being locals and the idiots that haven't figured out they should be getting on the road so they don't get home at 2AM

Single vs. double apex the bowl debate will last a long time for this track. I've tried both.

Like I said to you, in your car I don't think it makes much of a difference. I picked a reference point on the track and watched your speedo and it was the same no matter which line you took. But I think you're just overcoming the line through that bowl with raw HP. I think you could probably come through the bowl el-drifto sideways and still hit the same MPH by the end of the straight!

It was great to hang out with some of the forum members

It was good meeting you. Looking forward to seeing you at Pocono

[lucid]

Originally Posted by kieranlavin

You're freaking crazy and I'll bet you're at work today too?

Yeah, I'm at work. Lots to do here!

Originally Posted by kieranlavin

That was a total pain. Saturday just completely sucked. I spent more time indoors or in my friend's trailer hiding from the rain than anywhere else!

When not swapping wheels, which was 80% of the time, I was getting my beauty sleep at the back of my SUV in between sessions.

Originally Posted by kieranlavin

Jay did say you were ABUSING that poor car of your's I was speaking to him at the end of the day and he's like "yup, he LOVES those brakes and they work amazingly" He said he got into an M Coupe afterward and the brakes didn't feel like they were working. As for open track at the end of the day, that's usually the case. The final session of the day a lot of people don't hang around for because they have a long drive. So it winds up being locals and the idiots that haven't figured out they should be getting on the road so they don't get home at 2AM

I had SS lines and Castrol put in before the weekend. And a new set of RS19s. Pedal feel was much firmer and didn't experience any fade. Paddock temps at 470C/400C F/R. This car can outbreak most cars out there. Just needs cooling for tracks like the Glen IMO.

The last session was my only shot at a totally dry track on R comps. The real issue was driving through freakin' NYC. That did make me feel pretty stupid indeed. It's worse than crossing the SF bay bridge.

Originally Posted by kieranlavin

Like I said to you, in your car I don't think it makes much of a difference. I picked a reference point on the track and watched your speedo and it was the same no matter which line you took. But I think you're just overcoming the line through that bowl with raw HP. I think you could probably come through the bowl el-drifto sideways and still hit the same MPH by the end of the straight!

Ah, but the plot thickens...I think it was a different story with R rubber. When you and I went out, it was partially wet and we were on PS2s. With the R comps I could REALLY straight line deep into the bowl at high speed. So although exit speeds might still be similar I bet you are shaving off about 0.5 second into the corner that way. I know nobody believes me on this. I wish I had a logger to find out one way or another...

Originally Posted by kieranlavin

It was good meeting you. Looking forward to seeing you at Pocono

[lucid]

I just looked at the video, and I see a series of 1:19-1:20 laps back to back. Will post clips later...

[kieranlavin]

Originally Posted by lucid

Yeah, I'm at work. Lots to do here!

You're nuts

This car can outbreak most cars out there. Just needs cooling for tracks like the Glen IMO.

Yeah, the brakes were definitely fantastic. And you were definitely using them, if not at, pretty close to their maximum potential! As for cooling, luckily it wasn't warm/dry enough for that to be an issue this weekend. Now Pocono you might have an issue. I'd be interested to see how your brakes fair there though. The double infield will have two MAJOR braking zones with some smaller ones sprinkled in the infield. But you'll have two 150+ MPH (if I had to guess) straightaways

The real issue was driving through freakin' NYC. That did make me feel pretty stupid indeed. It's worse than crossing the SF bay bridge.

What hour did you hit the city? Should've been on the late side, no? Did you hit traffic going up the NJ Turnpike? If I had thought of it, I could've given you a better way to go up to avoid the traffic. Sorry bout that

Ah, but the plot thickens...I think it was a different story with R rubber. When you and I went out, it was partially wet and we were on PS2s.

Good point. You're probably right about picking up a half second or so but remember you're not racing or even TT'ing. I understand you want to go the fastest and be the fastest you can be with your car but you have to weigh the safety in too and some of the other cars in front of you (I can assure you... without talking to them) were extremely nervous seeing how fast you were closing on them on and INSIDE line while they were headed into the bowl up high. And it made me uncomfortable in the passenger seat with you doing that

Seriously though, it'd take a lot to unnerve me. My student in green yesterday told me at the end of the day (thankfully for him) that his goal for the day was to scare me. I just showed him a picture of the smooshed Mustang from Limerock and told him it'd take a lot to scare me after that

We'll have some fun at Pocono. Have you been there before?

[lucid]

Originally Posted by kieranlavin

Yeah, the brakes were definitely fantastic. And you were definitely using them, if not at, pretty close to their maximum potential! As for cooling, luckily it wasn't warm/dry enough for that to be an issue this weekend. Now Pocono you might have an issue. I'd be interested to see how your brakes fair there though. The double infield will have two MAJOR braking zones with some smaller ones sprinkled in the infield. But you'll have two 150+ MPH (if I had to guess) straightaways

Better come up with ducting option by then! I might actually not do Sunday, and just do F-Sat.

Originally Posted by kieranlavin

What hour did you hit the city? Should've been on the late side, no? Did you hit traffic going up the NJ Turnpike? If I had thought of it, I could've given you a better way to go up to avoid the traffic. Sorry bout that

9-10 pmish I think. Next time, I need to a find a way around...

Originally Posted by kieranlavin

Good point. You're probably right about picking up a half second or so but remember you're not racing or even TT'ing. I understand you want to go the fastest and be the fastest you can be with your car but you have to weigh the safety in too and some of the other cars in front of you (I can assure you... without talking to them) were extremely nervous seeing how fast you were closing on them on and INSIDE line while they were headed into the bowl up high. And it made me uncomfortable in the passenger seat with you doing that

Seriously though, it'd take a lot to unnerve me. My student in green yesterday told me at the end of the day (thankfully for him) that his goal for the day was to scare me. I just showed him a picture of the smooshed Mustang from Limerock and told him it'd take a lot to scare me after that

Fair enough. They are on the outside and I was diving inside and kind of braking in their direction, but I never overlapped with them or anything. But I can see how that can be alarming if you don't really know what the guy taking the inside line is trying to do exactly. You might think he is out of control or something. So I understand. However, isn't that an issue in general in any major braking zone? When someone is catching up to you with more speed and brakes later than you do at the end of straight for instance?

Originally Posted by kieranlavin

We'll have some fun at Pocono. Have you been there before?

Nope. I guess I need to register, huh?

[kieranlavin]

Originally Posted by lucid

Better come up with ducting option by then! I might actually not do Sunday, and just do F-Sat.

Even if you just do Saturday, that's what I was referring to with two 150+MPH straights. I'm just guessing; you might be going faster. And you probably will actually. I think I remember hitting somewhere around 120-125 in my SE-R. Sunday is the single infield and I know that an instructor in his first time out with a new (to him) C6 he was coming out of the south banking (T1 on the tri-oval) at 130MPH and accelerating from there. And that was going easy because he didn't really know the car yet and was on street tires!

9-10 pmish I think. Next time, I need to a find a way around...

There are a few ways. What I'd recommend though is 55 to 295 to 1 to 287 to 17/87 to 84 and across. A LITTLE out of the way but you'll be moving and not sitting in stupid Sunday evening traffic on the NJ Turnpike which I despise. There are other ways you could go but that way is probably the best keeping in mind you have a trailer so no backroads and such

Fair enough. They are on the outside and I was diving inside and kind of braking in their direction, but I never overlapped with them or anything. But I can see how that can be alarming if you don't really know what the guy taking the inside line is trying to do exactly. You might think he is out of control or something. So I understand. However, isn't that an issue in general in any major braking zone? When someone is catching up to you with more speed and brakes later than you do at the end of straight for instance?

This isn't so much an issue like at the end of a straight (T1) because everyone is on the same line. You'll see the other guy coming at you fast but you'll know that he isn't going to attempt to pass you in the turn. It's an issue at any track where people are taking multiple lines and experimenting. It shouldn't be MUCH of an issue with someone in HPDE3 but some people are still kind of squeamish with other cars too close to their baby. Some people are so concentrated on the line that they get freaked out and distracted by a car behind them that's way offline (according to their line) and it just freaks them out. Some other people get easily flustered with a car inches off their bumper. But that's a lot of what we're trying to do - get people comfortable with other cars around them. I think that was one of the checklist items on that signoff sheet Jay gave you too actually - how you are in traffic.

Me personally, if it's a track I know, I have no problem going out with racers passing without points in turns and stuff. I just keep a good eye on the mirror and make sure to give them plenty of room. If I've never been to the track, I'll try to catch a ride or go out in a different run group so there won't be open passing and I'll be able to concentrate on learning the line without distraction - like some jerk trying to pass me in the entrance to the bowl on the inside

Nope. I guess I need to register, huh?

Yup. They usually fill up fairly quickly but, with this economy, who knows? Either way, you'll have fun there. If I'm not busy I can go out with you or take you in my car and show you the line(s). Friday is usually a very busy day instructing but I haven't seen a schedule yet so we might be able to work something out

[ace996]

Originally Posted by lucid

Fair enough. They are on the outside and I was diving inside and kind of braking in their direction, but I never overlapped with them or anything. But I can see how that can be alarming if you don't really know what the guy taking the inside line is trying to do exactly. You might think he is out of control or something. So I understand. However, isn't that an issue in general in any major braking zone? When someone is catching up to you with more speed and brakes later than you do at the end of straight for instance?

Just for a moment...and I am playing devil's advoate...consider this...
You're coming down the main straight at Pocono Single Infield (or Watkins...or Limerock..or wherever)...really hauling and feeling great. You're braking MUCH harder than the car in front of you, perhaps because of better skill or R-comps or more balls, and you close on him very fast. Perhaps you settle-in behind him or take an inside line, as stated on Lightning, and then IT happens...the IT that happens to everyone sooner or later...
THE BRAKE PEDAL GOES TO THE FLOOR!!!!! That is often a problem even when one has open track...it's much worse when there is someone in front of you. The inexperienced siht themselves because they don't know what's going to happen...the experienced siht because they do know...

I'll not preach here...but we're not making money or collecting trophies at an HPDE. Investing some lap-time in the "margin of safety fund" will pay off so much more in the long run...one reason why I still run street tires.

This is what gives me the creeps at times...it's not ME making a mistake, it's the OTHER GUY...
Here's what happened at the end of Pocono's main straight...
http://www.over1g-racing.com/Videos/...r-accident.wmv
That was a professionally prepped T-1 Z06...full cage, harness, HANS. Driver was OK afterwards. I shudder at what would happen to us in our 3-points and no cages...and forget about how much it'd take to make that go away.
More HPDE fun....

- nothing you could do to avoid that...

- total loss???

Limerock fun!!!!...just a little early for that turn -

OMG!!!!! Hey, where'd that bananna peel come from????

You mean a tire can blowout???...

So that's what the armco sounds like when you hit it at Watkins...

...hey, they even make you pay for the repairs to the track!!!!

WTF happened there?... http://www.carolinaspeedzone.com/cob..._VIR080307.wmv
There are so many more.

Wow... I just "talked" myself into a dedicated track car...again.

Be good,
TomK

[kieranlavin]

Originally Posted by ace996

You're coming down the main straight at Pocono Single Infield (or Watkins...or Limerock..or wherever)...really hauling and feeling great. You're braking MUCH harder than the car in front of you, perhaps because of better skill or R-comps or more balls, and you close on him very fast.

Even in my case years ago when I was running the HPDE3 in my "crappy" SE-R that was "only" hitting 125 on the straights at the double infield and I nearly rear-ended a Viper who claimed to be hitting 175 on the straights because he was braking so early that he was on the brakes HARD and I was still foot-to-the-floor on the gas that I had to go straight off past the turn-in to avoid rear ending him.

Perhaps you settle-in behind him or take an inside line, as stated on Lightning, and then IT happens...the IT that happens to everyone sooner or later...

Excellent point! And you're right that HPDE probably isn't the place to be at the limit trying to get lap times and better those lap times with cars around you. Wait for the clean lap with no traffic around you and throttle back when you're around other cars

HPDE. Investing some lap-time in the "margin of safety fund" will pay off so much more in the long run...one reason why I still run street tires.

I run the street tires because I can't afford race tires

Here's what happened at the end of Pocono's main straight...

I remember hearing about that. A friend was racing that day and called to let us know about it. Scary stuff

Limerock fun!!!!...just a little early for that turn -

I love this video. This is the idiot that convinced me to put a rollbar in my car. He was totally fixated on that Porsche in front of him and determined to pass him or at least stay glued to his ass. I love the commentary too

hey, they even make you pay for the repairs to the track!!!!

I'm pretty sure all tracks make you pay for the damages to their guardrails and tirewalls

[lucid]

Originally Posted by ace996

Just for a moment...and I am playing devil's advoate...consider this...
You're coming down the main straight at Pocono Single Infield (or Watkins...or Limerock..or wherever)...really hauling and feeling great. You're braking MUCH harder than the car in front of you, perhaps because of better skill or R-comps or more balls, and you close on him very fast. Perhaps you settle-in behind him or take an inside line, as stated on Lightning, and then IT happens...the IT that happens to everyone sooner or later...
THE BRAKE PEDAL GOES TO THE FLOOR!!!!! That is often a problem even when one has open track...it's much worse when there is someone in front of you. The inexperienced siht themselves because they don't know what's going to happen...the experienced siht because they do know...

Good points. The thing is there are all sorts of risks on the track, HPDE or not. If a brake pedal goes to the floor at 150 mph in a braking zone, I don't see how the extra 6 feet or so you might put in between yourself and the car in front of you will change much. You'll still most likely rear end it and go off track anyway. There is almost nothing you can do if your tire blows out or you slide on coolant at high speed. That is actually one of the reasons why I don't want to go back on a fast track like the Glen with this car again. As can be seen in the videos you posted, even a seemingly harmless spin at low speed can lead to a roll-over. One either takes those risks or doesn't. I am not sure how driving a little slower would significantly alter such outcomes.

I am not speaking against being mindful of safety. It is a good idea not to push things too far, and that's something I am learning to judge better. In that session Kieran and I were in, I was testing a new line, and learned from it. That new line was indeed problematic when some of the other cars on the track were much slower. It seems to have spooked Kieran, and I value his (and your) opinion. I was naturally less spooked as the driver. But I didn't execute it in that manner in the following sessions with slower cars in front of me. When I post the video, you'll see that it worked fine with a fast car (gray 911) in front me as in that case you are not approaching it that rapidly and it is not much different than what happens in any other braking zone.