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      09-29-2022, 08:38 AM   #45
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I don't need a PhD to know that climate changes. Climate has been changing over time for as long as people cared to write it down and it doesn't care if people write it. The Nile river used to run right next to the pyramids and then turn eastward across the entire Sahara of North Africa and it used to be lush and tropical from fossil records and satellite imagery. Then it slowly shifted so wallah climate change demonstrated and there was no CO2 emissions from BMWs back then. All things change why should climate be any different?
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      09-29-2022, 12:31 PM   #46
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It's not so much the climate change, but the speed of the change that is troubling.
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      09-29-2022, 01:00 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 540iSUP View Post
I don't believe some folks here know how science works.

When you say, how do we fix a problem when we can't isolate it. In the medical field we run tests to try and figure out what the problem is. The patient might say or think one thing, when in actuality its another. Just like a car, a mechanic needs to run tests to figure out what the issue is, then run more tests to see if that truly is the issue. When fixing things, we might end up finding another problem that needs to be addressed. This is life.

The butter argument is a great example of how science works. We thought margarine was better for you than butter, when in reality it is far worse. This does not mean butter is good; butter is still bad for you, just not as bad a margarine. I mean, look at cigarettes or how about more recently, COVID.

I live in Socal and I see the smog everyday. When I travel to Central CA and go over the Grapevine, I can literally see the smog layer. You can't tell me that is natural. When my family goes scuba diving in Hawaii and tell me how devastated the reefs are, you can't tell me that's natural.
There is definitely some irony in there considering CA is supposedly the most environmentally conscious state.

If you look at Covid and how much general traffic and people movement stopped during that time to reduce emissions by what we saw during that timeframe, it becomes obvious that no adjustment in our everyday lives is possible to get to that level without completely altering everyone's lifestyle... and by that I mean including our capitalist consumption society.

Went an easy fix... ban private jets, go hard on China and significantly find a way to slow general consumption... good luck w any of those. Oh and force all companies that can offer remote work to do so.
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      09-29-2022, 04:09 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3.0L View Post
It's not so much the climate change, but the speed of the change that is troubling.
That's the point I was about to post. And the changes appear to be accelerating at a faster rate than even the climate science has predicted.
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      09-29-2022, 04:18 PM   #49
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The arrogance on both sides of the climate change argument is really annoying. To assume we know how a billions-years-old planet is going to react long-term is stupid. We are just a little dot in time.

However, I do agree that there are things that humans are doing that are causing changes and I am for people making changes to preserve what we have.
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      09-29-2022, 04:23 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
There is definitely some irony in there considering CA is supposedly the most environmentally conscious state.

If you look at Covid and how much general traffic and people movement stopped during that time to reduce emissions by what we saw during that timeframe, it becomes obvious that no adjustment in our everyday lives is possible to get to that level without completely altering everyone's lifestyle... and by that I mean including our capitalist consumption society.

Went an easy fix... ban private jets, go hard on China and significantly find a way to slow general consumption... good luck w any of those. Oh and force all companies that can offer remote work to do so.
I'll add to your list: can plastic bags and bottles just not exist or would that cripple a few rich people not continuing to produce and sell them? They are everywhere......
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      09-29-2022, 04:33 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMcLellan View Post
The arrogance on both sides of the climate change argument is really annoying. To assume we know how a billions-years-old planet is going to react long-term is stupid. We are just a little dot in time.

However, I do agree that there are things that humans are doing that are causing changes and I am for people making changes to preserve what we have.
For example Google flights now lets you sort and choose your flight based on carbon emissions so you can pay a higher fare to virtue signal on social media

Paper bags and plastic bags.. Please.

I remember when paper bags were banned because they were bad for the environment and replaced with plastic. Now we have oceans full of plastic. Could this be foreshadowing of replacing ICE vehicles with EVs before fully understanding the impact?

I wonder which is worse for the environment (I'll concur on plastic): paper bags or virtually everyone of little league age or older having a cell phone, gaming console, computer, and tablet that is manufactured and replaced cyclically every couple of years?

Last edited by CarsAndGuitars; 09-29-2022 at 05:02 PM..
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      09-30-2022, 08:23 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarsAndGuitars View Post
For example Google flights now lets you sort and choose your flight based on carbon emissions so you can pay a higher fare to virtue signal on social media

Paper bags and plastic bags.. Please.

I remember when paper bags were banned because they were bad for the environment and replaced with plastic. Now we have oceans full of plastic. Could this be foreshadowing of replacing ICE vehicles with EVs before fully understanding the impact?

I wonder which is worse for the environment (I'll concur on plastic): paper bags or virtually everyone of little league age or older having a cell phone, gaming console, computer, and tablet that is manufactured and replaced cyclically every couple of years?
Exactly. All we do is continue to consume and feels like there isn't much choice in the matter. The system is setup to keep making money. At least that is the case in the US. Makes me want to watch the movie "Don't Look Up" on Netflix as it is a great satire of US consumption despite the planet.
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      09-30-2022, 09:40 AM   #53
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Let me also add... you better get onto banning butcoin quick because that is cancer for the environment.
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      09-30-2022, 02:01 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Let me also add... you better get onto banning butcoin quick because that is cancer for the environment.
I'm worried how one might deposit their butcoins. And more afraid about making a withdrawal.
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      09-30-2022, 02:51 PM   #55
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It's awful for the central banking environment
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      09-30-2022, 02:55 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H2O_Doc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Let me also add... you better get onto banning butcoin quick because that is cancer for the environment.
I'm worried how one might deposit their butcoins. And more afraid about making a withdrawal.
A buttcoin is always a buttcoin 😂... no one knows where the wallet is hidden.
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      10-01-2022, 02:24 PM   #57
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The problem with today's science is Dunning Kruger!!!

We THINK we know, when we don't! We THINK we have all the answers, when we don't!

Trying to compare a few hundred years vs eons of mother nature is futile!

Nixon declared WAR on Cancer in the early 70's when the ratio was like 1-10 to get cancer in your lifetime. What's it today... 4-10! So, things are better understood, better testing and diagnostics, better treatment, so more survivors, but more also being found and the cause unknown!

Don't even try to venture down the genomic rabbit hole!

Lol... So the environment, yeah, we know shyt! As George Carlin once said, the Earth will spit us out like a bad virus, and over a few million years go back to being what it is, with us, or without. Disclaimer: See "Dinosaurs" lmao!
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      10-02-2022, 01:47 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cooolone2 View Post
The problem with today's science is Dunning Kruger!!!

We THINK we know, when we don't! We THINK we have all the answers, when we don't!

Trying to compare a few hundred years vs eons of mother nature is futile!

Nixon declared WAR on Cancer in the early 70's when the ratio was like 1-10 to get cancer in your lifetime. What's it today... 4-10! So, things are better understood, better testing and diagnostics, better treatment, so more survivors, but more also being found and the cause unknown!

Don't even try to venture down the genomic rabbit hole!

Lol... So the environment, yeah, we know shyt! As George Carlin once said, the Earth will spit us out like a bad virus, and over a few million years go back to being what it is, with us, or without. Disclaimer: See "Dinosaurs" lmao!
We know much more than a few hundred years through a variety of lines of evidence.
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      10-03-2022, 12:46 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMcLellan View Post
I'll add to your list: can plastic bags and bottles just not exist or would that cripple a few rich people not continuing to produce and sell them? They are everywhere......
It is my belief that plastics are far worse for the environment than emissions. I mean, plastics are literally made of fossil fuels, they aren't recyclable, and we rely on them for almost everything.
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      10-03-2022, 12:55 AM   #60
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We actually have scientific evidence of a culture that pretty much went extinct because of climate change. They are the Mayans and Aztecs.

We are starting to realize, through Lidar, that their civilizations spanned farther into the rain forest than we knew. One of the proposed reasons why these civilizations vanished is because they cut down large swaths of rain forest in order to build their cities. By doing this, they changed the environment that they relied upon. Without moisture the rain forests stopped producing rain and the lands dried up. They were not able to live off the land so they left. Now that they are gone, the rain forests were able to recover.

There is also the people of Easter Island. The island had enough to support the people for so long and when they used up all their resources, they didn't survive.
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      10-03-2022, 08:01 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 540iSUP View Post
We actually have scientific evidence of a culture that pretty much went extinct because of climate change. They are the Mayans and Aztecs.

We are starting to realize, through Lidar, that their civilizations spanned farther into the rain forest than we knew. One of the proposed reasons why these civilizations vanished is because they cut down large swaths of rain forest in order to build their cities. By doing this, they changed the environment that they relied upon. Without moisture the rain forests stopped producing rain and the lands dried up. They were not able to live off the land so they left. Now that they are gone, the rain forests were able to recover.

There is also the people of Easter Island. The island had enough to support the people for so long and when they used up all their resources, they didn't survive.
Source??

Aztecs are documented to have died from Smallpox and other diseases from European explorers / invaders.

A Mayan drought from excessive logging is a theory and a plausible one, but one of many, none of which have been demonstrably proven.

Easter Island as you said exhausted their limited resources in an isolated area. That is not climate change. That is using up your resources.
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      10-04-2022, 04:16 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtr2M3 View Post
And in the 70’s, experts were most concerned of a coming ice age as narrated by Leonard Nimoy here;



And in the 80’s butter was going to kill you, use margarine instead… now margarine will kill you, better use butter
Don't put spread on my sarnies
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      10-07-2022, 08:59 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by TboneS54 View Post
It's awful for the central banking environment
I must vehemently disagree.
The concept of central banking is not affected by decentralized scam rubbish like cryptocurrency
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      10-07-2022, 01:02 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommysalami View Post
Enact green policies assuming climate change is man-made, and if we're wrong we wasted money and inconvenienced ourselves.

Don't do anything assuming climate change is just natural change over time, and if we're wrong we potentially ruined the planet for future generations.

Seems like an easy decision to me and doesn't require us to pretend either side is 100% certain of anything. Consequences are just much worse if we don't do anything and are wrong.
Like most complex issues in life, I believe the truth likely lies somewhere in the middle.

Is the climate changing due to man made activities? Sure. Are we seconds from midnight on the doomsday clock? I'm not so sure.
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      10-07-2022, 01:13 PM   #65
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How much do WE know, very little. How much do scientists know, a lot. How much do WE THINK we know, way more than actual!
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      10-07-2022, 01:30 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankMstein View Post
How much do WE know, very little. How much do scientists know, a lot. How much do WE THINK we know, way more than actual!
Scientists universally agree which way is north, that the earth is round and that water is wet. They don't universally agree on on climate, let alone much else.
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