[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by ASAP

I almost feel as if you didn't read my comment...

Most of these things are market directed and / or items BMW has no control over. Is your issue with BMW or the market in general? BMW still makes the most enthusiast oriented cars in its class.

You are probably looking for a 3 series the size of the current 2 series? hint, it exists... its an M235i gran coupe... ah, you want a car that size to be true RWD? So you want it to be even smaller inside due to RWD packaging and even more expensive than the M235i? The price point you end up would be an m340i... and the 10 people that would buy this theoretical car would severly complain the moment it's discontinued after 1 year due to no sales.

As far as EPS - again, completely market directed... guess what...? even Porsche does that... and without their Macan / Cayenne / Panamera... none of the 911s would exist today.

No, I read it and it's irrelevant whether or not BMW "had a choice".

In today's market the difference between BMW and other German luxury makes has narrowed considerably. With electrification it'll essentially disappear

[tracer bullet]

R&T wrote another article related to the original:

Electric Power Steering Is Not the Enemy

It does mention BMW of course, but isn't knocking the brand quite as much as the earlier article. Also describes how the bigger EPS motor dampens the feel but allows quicker steering inputs i.e. to control a slide.

[10"]

for me the E generation of BMWs was the last generation of very driving-oriented bimmers. After that they all felt too computerized to me—-but the G generation has gone even past that into non-enthusiast machines.

No a Ring lap time doesn’t impress me—neither does tech.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by 10"

for me the E generation of BMWs was the last generation of very driving-oriented bimmers. After that they all felt too computerized to me—-but the G generation has gone even past that into non-enthusiast machines.

No a Ring lap time doesn’t impress me—neither does tech.

As I see it, the world has moved on, so has BMW.

We have threads on here, (an "enthusiast's forum"), bemoaning lots of simple omissions, like the lack of pause button on the steering wheel, no delayed clearing wipe for windscreen washers, etc., etc.

What would it be like if BMW didn't fit driver aids, which require EPS as a basic hardware function? Imagine the backlash from both the enthusiasts and wider market.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by 10"

for me the E generation of BMWs was the last generation of very driving-oriented bimmers. After that they all felt too computerized to me—-but the G generation has gone even past that into non-enthusiast machines.

No a Ring lap time doesn’t impress me—neither does tech.

The G’s speed, handling, breaking and overall performance are leagues better than the E’s. It’s not even close. This is not opinion. It’s not even fair to compare the two. You would cancel all that out because of the new tech? I just don’t get it. I get why some of you hate the new grilles. I mean you’ve had the same grilles for 40 years and all of a sudden they radically change it. Men are pretty uncomfortable with change, but the fact that they have delivered significantly better performing vehicles, and people are upset about that because of a screen goes beyond my comprehension.

[Nahlem]

This is so common among many who are sceptic about change, its like the old saying people are like a train with different train cars, You have this train like an arrow it goes forward never straight forward but forward sense you can't go back that is at this time our physics doesn't allow for it, then in all of those cars you have those in the front of the cars who is shouting the loudest to BMW to keep pushing go further go faster and so on never stopping to look back those who drives the change. Who just loves the change for changer matters even if its worse in terms of engagement, touch screen and so on and so forth. Simply the folks who just keeps screaming GO FASTER.

Then you have those in the middle car they are mixed bunch of types, you have those also in there who screams for BMW to go faster but not as loud as those in front car of the train and you also have those who is more sceptical of the movement BMW is taking with the train although initially a bit hesitant but usually open minded and willing to accept the change as long as it is "good" <-- good is subjective in this manner.

Then you have those in last train car those who screaming the loudest to BRAKE THE train its going to drive of a cliff ! No further and so on and so forth. Those people are the ones who are most hesitant to the changes that is going on, if it were up to them they would rather of all if they could skip electric windows, i mean think of the day in case you drive of a cliff in to water what happens then?, why change something if it works already? Right we don't need change? Why change away from V8s and so on and so forth, come on BMW stay the same don't change. Change is not needed the product is perfectly balanced as all thing should be. Right?

And the middle car is where BMW is aiming to get people from that car to the front car. While trying to fish a few of those in the last train car who is close to the middle train car to get them to step in to the middle car they don't have to be so long in the front of the middle car but just get to the middle car.

Because those in the front car are simply the ones driving for changes. While at the same time when aiming there some of those in that middle car witch is the largest of all train cars you have those people who bounce between the front car and the last car depending on what changes BMW implements.

That is where BMW is trying to hit the nail. I guess it us up to each and everyone to see where they are in one of those cars. And remember this train will always stop at your command when or if you choose to get of that is up to each and everyone :-)

I guess that is what we are seeing across the board in both these forums and in the car journalism we are seeing today.

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I think the short of it, for a lot of us (me at least) is not a resistance to "change" but how it becomes more and more obvious that BMW has taken one of the aspects we love about the car, away, and done it on purpose. It used to be "why can't they have steering feel and feedback as good as _______". The answer is - they don't want to. That's what we are sad to realize.

I forget which video it was, for the new M2, and the wording was along the lines of "steering feel is not as good as Mazda or Porsche". Let the first part of that sink in for a second.

Cars, tech, and BMW move forward of course. We don't lament the new cars. We do lament their intentional removal of something we considered to be the biggest draw to the brand. It is what it is, but hopefully that clarifies things a little.

[Theruleslawyer]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

I think the short of it, for a lot of us (me at least) is not a resistance to "change" but how it becomes more and more obvious that BMW has taken one of the aspects we love about the car, away, and done it on purpose. It used to be "why can't they have steering feel and feedback as good as _______". The answer is - they don't want to. That's what we are sad to realize.

I forget which video it was, for the new M2, and the wording was along the lines of "steering feel is not as good as Mazda or Porsche". Let the first part of that sink in for a second.

Cars, tech, and BMW move forward of course. We don't lament the new cars. We do lament their intentional removal of something we considered to be the biggest draw to the brand. It is what it is, but hopefully that clarifies things a little.

Yup.They could do better with epas if they tried. The fact that they dont, not even on M cars says something. The "Driving experience" is not what they're selling anymore. It might be faster around a track, but people who really care about feel are going to have to look elsewhere. The reality is even the average M driver just wants to go fast in a straight line and look cool. Hunting down that last bit of steering feel will probably be too much NVH for the normal buyer.

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by Theruleslawyer

Yup.They could do better with epas if they tried. The fact that they dont, not even on M cars says something. The "Driving experience" is not what they're selling anymore. It might be faster around a track, but people who really care about feel are going to have to look elsewhere. The reality is even the average M driver just wants to go fast in a straight line and look cool. Hunting down that last bit of steering feel will probably be too much NVH for the normal buyer.

LOL. Just a few posts up someone mentioned this article.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...ing-explainer/

That brings us to a more fundamental argument about what is good steering? Is it feelsome, or is it safe? That's a big question, though. One for another day. (I also want to note that BMW steering feel has improved much in the EPAS era, especially in the latest M cars.)

I get that there's a lot of old men yelling at clouds here which is not specific to these forums as the population is aging and some simply have a more difficult time adapting but what bothers me more is how uninformed so many posters are sputing complete nonsense.

[Artemis]

Conclusion of the article: for some folks down at BMW a part of their long-term clients and aficionados have become 'has beens'.

"BMW’s trajectory reminds me of one of the once-favorite bars that I frequented in college. I had been going to this place for years now, my way to decompress on a Thirsty Thursday when I was younger and would pretend like I didn’t have a Friday morning class at 8:50 AM. Over time, first slowly, then kind of all at once, the bar changed. The music changed from kitschy Nineties hits and Recession-era Britney Spears and Lady Gaga to some pop starlet I had never heard of called Olivia Rodrigo. The quality of food it served wasn’t the same, and some of the menu items had been removed. The bar was remodeled. My favorite bartenders had moved on to greener pastures. The bar I had come to know and love in college, and now as a young adult, just wasn’t the same.

Was it the right move for the bar? I don’t know their finances, but I do know that the new crowd it attracted knew every word to the Olivia Rodrigo songs even if they didn’t know too much about those 1990s hits that I had memorized note-for-note. The bar had pivoted, and either intentionally or not, it was very clear that I was no longer their primary client.

And that’s the case for BMW, no? I stood around the Ritz-Carlton, breathing in the Palm Springs air, looking at all the new cars BMW had brought a gaggle of assorted journalists to drive. They were nice, but I couldn’t deny that I was feeling the same way that I felt back at my old favorite bar. I, and people like me, weren’t really their clients anymore. The era of the 330i or 335i sitting as the untouchable pinnacle of driving luxury sedans doesn’t exist here. It’s not like the new 3-Series is bad, it's just not great. Even cars like the X1 or iX, well executed as they are, simply don’t have the same driving enthusiast focus that we got from BMWs not that long ago. The most compelling examples of “old BMW” are paywalled, behind a greatest hits-esque limited production scope and limited to halo models like the M4 CSL. These feel more like last-call editions BMW begrudgingly make for a tiny niche of people who have a lot of cash. They serve as a reminder of an era the brand would rather walk away from."

[Theruleslawyer]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

LOL. Just a few posts up someone mentioned this article.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...ing-explainer/



I get that there's a lot of old men yelling at clouds here which is not specific to these forums as the population is aging and some simply have a more difficult time adapting but what bothers me more is how uninformed so many posters are sputing complete nonsense.

I feel like you're making my point for me. BMW may have improved since they introduced EPAS, but they have made decisions that make their epas solution not as good as Porsche. Its always a trade off and they are prioritizing other things than feel- steering speed according to the article. EPAS isn't inherently bad, but yes they could do better from an enthusiast perspective and choose not to.