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BIMMERPOST Universal Forums General BMW News and Cars Discussion Doug DeMuro "What is Going On with BMW's Weird Decisions Lately?"

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      02-09-2021, 11:20 AM   #67
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I love old BMWs as much as the next guy but I don’t agree with the “BMW is lost” hysteria. If you enjoy the smaller, lighter, and louder BMWs of the past, that’s great and they are all still available to be had and enjoyed. You can buy one and love it to death, as I and many others do as well. The new models are pretty darn good too. Of course they are different than the cars 20 years ago, just as those cars were different from what they put out in the 80’s. I genuinely enjoy our modern toys just as much though. This ugly little i3s man I tell you, it’s a hoot and every time I open the door and spy the CFRP in the door jamb, I get a little of that fizz a la James May. They still know what they’re doing imo. Very much looking forward to a 6MT G82 in the driveway.

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      02-09-2021, 10:47 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sublime00 View Post
Im pretty sure BMW isn't targeting most people on a bimmerpost forum.

Agreed. I would say most people here are enthusiasts about performance models and they aren't enthusiasts regarding leasing/buying entry level 3, 5, X3, X5 models.
This is certainly not a universal, but I can usually tell when someone will recognize that I'm pulling up next to them in a BMW based on how many and the location of their tailpipes. 2 pipes on the left side of the car they are usually oblivious. 1 on each side there is a decent chance they'll notice me, and of course 4 pipes is going to almost guarantee a wave. I agree that all of the companies these days are going for the mass market appeal with price. The X1 and 2 series both start at $35,900 and you can get a gently used X3 for $18,000 (one of the docs I work with just did). Those aren't enthusiasts, but probably are happy and excited that they are driving a BMW.


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Originally Posted by Sublime00 View Post
I can understand traditional car companies scrambling to get these Tesla buyers, but I don't think they'll make a significant dent in Tesla sales and Tesla's market share will continue to grow. Until people stop viewing Elon Musk like he's Tony Stark, and Tesla stops being "cool" among the masses, I think the competing auto companies will continue to struggle to get people into their electric cars but you need to develop the tech to future proof your cars as ICE go away.
Tesla certainly has the panache these day of "oh, you have a Tesla!?" Something that BMW once certainly had, but is now faded into the background to a degree.


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Originally Posted by Sublime00 View Post
It's like if Tesla started targeting M buyers; they would not be very successful.
Maybe only if they can bring the price of their Roaster down or build something in the direction of it at a more reasonable price.

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Originally Posted by Sublime00 View Post
Also, the new bmw design language for their electric cars is fugly.
When the Prius started the electric revolution and then a few other companies including BMW with the I3 followed it seemed like the required design language for an electric vehicle was that it was not at all allowed to be sporty or even attractive. You could pick them all out by their similar ugly styling. At least that is starting to subside.
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      02-10-2021, 12:58 AM   #69
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Funny how everybody is hating on BMW for focusing on SUV’s and comfort when every single luxury brand is doing the same. That is what sells, it is a business at the end of the day.

No other brand still builds manual sports coupes and sedans. BMW does.
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      02-10-2021, 01:14 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeA View Post
Funny how everybody is hating on BMW for focusing on SUV’s and comfort when every single luxury brand is doing the same. That is what sells, it is a business at the end of the day.

No other brand still builds manual sports coupes and sedans. BMW does.
No one is hating BMW for building SUVs or making money. They're hating on BMW for their arrogance, their insulting nature, their horrific designs, their ditching of BMW design themes, and being tone deaf to their customers. Read this thread and others carefully because the problem is very deep and it really goes to the core of the individuals that are in charge of the company. Some would call it disgusting.

I'm a manual enthusiast and that's what keeps me at BMW. Just look at my avatar. But, I would like to point out that as of later this year, besides the M2, M3, and M4, BMW doesn't make manuals anymore.
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      02-10-2021, 01:16 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeA View Post
Funny how everybody is hating on BMW for focusing on SUV’s and comfort when every single luxury brand is doing the same. That is what sells, it is a business at the end of the day.

No other brand still builds manual sports coupes and sedans. BMW does.
Yes, everyone is doing it. It seems like the world is becoming less interested in cool sporty cars and more just in comfort and utility vehicles. It's getting darn near impossible to find a coupe from car makers these days.
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      02-10-2021, 07:04 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snareman View Post
Yes, everyone is doing it. It seems like the world is becoming less interested in cool sporty cars and more just in comfort and utility vehicles. It's getting darn near impossible to find a coupe from car makers these days.
Majority of consumers really don't care, most of them care how many screens they get.

Cars are appliances to 99% of people, and the remaining 1% complain are more than likely car people, and would rather buy used cars that has a soul
Why design for a market that is pretty much turned away from the product they can make money on.
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      02-10-2021, 07:57 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by thebmw View Post
No one is hating BMW for building SUVs or making money. They're hating on BMW for their arrogance, their insulting nature, their horrific designs, their ditching of BMW design themes, and being tone deaf to their customers. Read this thread and others carefully because the problem is very deep and it really goes to the core of the individuals that are in charge of the company. Some would call it disgusting.

I'm a manual enthusiast and that's what keeps me at BMW. Just look at my avatar. But, I would like to point out that as of later this year, besides the M2, M3, and M4, BMW doesn't make manuals anymore.
Agree, I have no problem with the SUV's, my bigger issue is with the design and softening of even their sports division. M is becoming diluted and they are watering down many areas. Porsche builds SUV's but they at least put their profits towards building great sports cars. BMW may stick a manual transmission in the M3/4 but that doesn't excuse the issues I have with the cars. The M5 CS was a great showing of what the M division can do, I hope they push that thinking further into more models.
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      02-10-2021, 01:35 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stein_325i View Post
Agree, I have no problem with the SUV's, my bigger issue is with the design and softening of even their sports division. M is becoming diluted and they are watering down many areas. Porsche builds SUV's but they at least put their profits towards building great sports cars. BMW may stick a manual transmission in the M3/4 but that doesn't excuse the issues I have with the cars. The M5 CS was a great showing of what the M division can do, I hope they push that thinking further into more models.
I see where you're coming from.

Porsche is also diluting if you look at it that way. The Boxster (which is supposed to be their purest sports car) comes with a uninspiring 4 cylinder. I think one huge problem is turbocharging, as N/A engines are MUCH more engaging and raw.

BMW's M division is as good as ever with their products and I'm certain the new M3 will be a hoot to drive. As far as sticking M on most of the products, that's something that Audi started with their S4 being moved down to 335i category in 2010, this forced BMW and MB to use M and AMG on their regular cars in order to keep up with "S" lineup cars. MB, BMW and Audi are all guilty of "diluting" those names but in reality, the people who know, know the difference between the proper M/AMG cars.
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      02-10-2021, 01:41 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeA View Post
I see where you're coming from.

Porsche is also diluting if you look at it that way. The Boxster (which is supposed to be their purest sports car) comes with a uninspiring 4 cylinder. I think one huge problem is turbocharging, as N/A engines are MUCH more engaging and raw.

BMW's M division is as good as ever with their products and I'm certain the new M3 will be a hoot to drive. As far as sticking M on most of the products, that's something that Audi started with their S4 being moved down to 335i category in 2010, this forced BMW and MB to use M and AMG on their regular cars in order to keep up with "S" lineup cars. MB, BMW and Audi are all guilty of "diluting" those names but in reality, the people who know, know the difference between the proper M/AMG cars.
I don't have a problem with the M-Performance cars (well, at least the RWD-based ones, 2GC doesn't even deserve a regular BMW badge but thats a different thread), I own a fake AMG, by dilute I just mean that the M products no longer feel as special as they once were or as bespoke.
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      02-10-2021, 01:49 PM   #76
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Doug has a new list of what he considers the 5 best BMWs.
Have you guys checked it out?
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      02-10-2021, 01:54 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by ..Rush.. View Post
Doug has a new list of what he considers the 5 best BMWs.
Have you guys checked it out?
Just watched it a few minutes ago. I agree with his picks, although I'd probably swap the order around and switch the E36 for the E46.
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      02-10-2021, 03:38 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by GeorgeA View Post
Funny how everybody is hating on BMW for focusing on SUV’s and comfort when every single luxury brand is doing the same. That is what sells, it is a business at the end of the day.

No other brand still builds manual sports coupes and sedans. BMW does.
This is largely due to the fact that wages have not kept up with cost of living (except for the 1%, they've just gotten richer). The median household income is about half what it was in the 70s ($60k). Bullshit! you say, the median household income for today is about $80k - true but in the 60s you/they were probably a single income household, now you're probably both working full time and still only bringing in about $80k unless you have "VP" in your title or you've got an engineering degree in a high-demand STEM industry - but then you probably also have $100k in student loan debt.

We are also something like 250% more productive than we were 20 years ago (hooray laptops and smartphones and 4G/Wifi) but we're actually working longer hours.

SO buying a new car becomes a joint effort with your partner. Doesn't really make sense to drop $40k on a Miata RF if you're thinking about having a kid or your partner has no interest in driving stick. Doesn't make sense to spend $20k on a 160hp/3000lbs Golf. You end up buying a Tiguan or a Mini Countryman S AWD for $30k instead and then you get AWD and a taller ride height so your wife feels safer. The Crossover is basically a minivan without a sliding door.

And it's pretty rare for a single adult to be able to afford both rent/mortgage in an urban area (that is, not in the middle of nowhere) AND $40k on a car. You probably have other priorities like your $1000/mo student loan payment. I think I know maybe 3 people my age who live alone? The cost of rent is too damn high.

So car manufacturers are leaning on two things: Crossover SUVs and lower monthly payments (yay 6 year loans - more debt!). (Margins are also a huge reason why we're seeing gauge clusters turning into TFT screens. Fewer moving parts are cheaper to produce and maintain.)

So when an entry level 4 banger hatchback costs $20k or 128i with no cargo room costs $30k, why bother? Team up with your spouse and then you can afford a $40k car with premium sound and "sport tuned" handling and a big cargo area and you both are fine with putting the kid seat in the back.

If you are a tip earner you're fucked even harder, their minimum wage is $2.13/hr and you are more likely to be a tip earner if you're a woman or minority (who are also the majority of folks that exited the work force in 2020). I know one single person who bought a new 128i, but she is a bartender and also sells drugs under the table.

So, I think of it this way. Buy an SUV from a car company who supports motorsports. Think of it like a $40k donation to their racing dept and you get a free SUV. I've heard some Ferrari fans spin it this way. $300k donation to their F1 division gets you a free base model 2 seater.

People are shitting on BMW for "catering" to the chinese market, but you know what, they're buying new cars. We aren't.

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      02-10-2021, 05:44 PM   #79
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Not sure his comment about BMW being the second favourite German car, VW and MB are clearly out ahead. I think he's right, BMW seems a bit lost right now.
Back in 1999, 2000+, it was. They were hitting on all 6 cylinders, no pun intended.
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      02-10-2021, 05:55 PM   #80
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Back in 1999, 2000+, it was. They were hitting on all 6 cylinders, no pun intended.
I don't care who make them; Porsche, BMW or who ever, I (personally preference) would never buy a 4 banger...
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      02-10-2021, 06:00 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeA View Post
I see where you're coming from.

Porsche is also diluting if you look at it that way. The Boxster (which is supposed to be their purest sports car) comes with a uninspiring 4 cylinder. I think one huge problem is turbocharging, as N/A engines are MUCH more engaging and raw.

BMW's M division is as good as ever with their products and I'm certain the new M3 will be a hoot to drive. As far as sticking M on most of the products, that's something that Audi started with their S4 being moved down to 335i category in 2010, this forced BMW and MB to use M and AMG on their regular cars in order to keep up with "S" lineup cars. MB, BMW and Audi are all guilty of "diluting" those names but in reality, the people who know, know the difference between the proper M/AMG cars.
Well, personally I can’t wait to get my hands on the new 718 GTS 4.0, now that will surely be a “hoot”!
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      02-10-2021, 06:08 PM   #82
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I don't care who make them; Porsche, BMW or who ever, I (personally preference) would never buy a 4 banger...
I was speaking of the line up that was available during those years, ie the 6 cylinders and the feel of the drive. My first one came in 1999, it hooked me into the brand, to date my newest and last one I’ll ever buy which is a 2018 F80CP. Fast as hell but not even close to what I felt with my past BMWs. The 1999 E46 M54 ZF. Then to an E92 ZF which I never should have sold. All went kind down hill for me after that but still pick up the F80CP with its killer looks as they say and I could forgive the less road feel. But now the G80 is so far off the reservation it just makes me sick to see it, knowing where it all started for me. Just my opinions, others are free to think otherwise.
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      02-10-2021, 10:28 PM   #83
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For what it’s worth, whacky designs are nothing new to the company, and certainly not a sign of them struggling or trying to please one region. There is a well established history of strange looking BMWs, some more beloved than others...











I should add that in the late 90’s, an X5 was probably pretty goddamn strange to see too.
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      02-10-2021, 10:59 PM   #84
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For what it’s worth, whacky designs are nothing new to the company, and certainly not a sign of them struggling or trying to please one region. There is a well established history of strange looking BMWs, some more beloved than others...


Now they have listened too much. That one has NO grilles! Some grilles on that one could at least keep your legs cool.
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      02-11-2021, 12:35 AM   #85
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Well, personally I can’t wait to get my hands on the new 718 GTS 4.0, now that will surely be a “hoot”!
For sure will be, that and the GT series cars are the only pure n/a models left.

Problem is, not everyone can afford/will be willing to spend $90k+ on a weekend toy.
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      02-11-2021, 01:46 AM   #86
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The world was more interesting for automotive enthusiasts when BMW was on their game. The lineup from 2001 was probably the pinnacle, but several amazing cars have come since. Not to mention the S85, S65 and other incredible engines.

But over the last 5-10 years... Ugh. Aside from the occasional driver's car (i.e. M2)... it's just sad. Makes me want to cry.
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      02-11-2021, 06:30 AM   #87
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He did point out that the decline began in earnest in 2015. Doug makes some good points, and walking around the dealer last service I have to admit my e92 is probably the last BMW I'll buy after driving them for 20+ years - nothing appeals. I'll just keep driving the 320d (and keep my warmed over e30 as the fun car) until either electric cars become affordable, or hydrogen ends up winning - hydrogen may happen yet in Australia given our proximity to Japan / South Korea, and their commitment to hydrogen to hit their emissions targets.

The "M-car" argument is bit moot - the entire range used to be entertaining to drive. BMW began pimping out the 'M' brand in the early 1980s when you could buy an e21 "Motorsport" from the dealer, with M badges, Recaros and a couple of stripes - basically the forerunner to the M-Performance packages you get now. You could also get e36 318i coupes kitted out with full M3 body kits from the factory etc. It's nothing new.

They're not necessarily done - they've seemed 'lost' before. The Bangle cars were slammed back in the day, but they've dated better than a lot of other cars of the early 2000s and are now seen as 'peak BMW', go figure!
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      02-11-2021, 06:48 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motorradist View Post
This is largely due to the fact that wages have not kept up with cost of living (except for the 1%, they've just gotten richer). The median household income is about half what it was in the 70s ($60k). Bullshit! you say, the median household income for today is about $80k - true but in the 60s you/they were probably a single income household, now you're probably both working full time and still only bringing in about $80k unless you have "VP" in your title or you've got an engineering degree in a high-demand STEM industry - but then you probably also have $100k in student loan debt.

We are also something like 250% more productive than we were 20 years ago (hooray laptops and smartphones and 4G/Wifi) but we're actually working longer hours.

SO buying a new car becomes a joint effort with your partner. Doesn't really make sense to drop $40k on a Miata RF if you're thinking about having a kid or your partner has no interest in driving stick. Doesn't make sense to spend $20k on a 160hp/3000lbs Golf. You end up buying a Tiguan or a Mini Countryman S AWD for $30k instead and then you get AWD and a taller ride height so your wife feels safer. The Crossover is basically a minivan without a sliding door.

And it's pretty rare for a single adult to be able to afford both rent/mortgage in an urban area (that is, not in the middle of nowhere) AND $40k on a car. You probably have other priorities like your $1000/mo student loan payment. I think I know maybe 3 people my age who live alone? The cost of rent is too damn high.

So car manufacturers are leaning on two things: Crossover SUVs and lower monthly payments (yay 6 year loans - more debt!). (Margins are also a huge reason why we're seeing gauge clusters turning into TFT screens. Fewer moving parts are cheaper to produce and maintain.)

So when an entry level 4 banger hatchback costs $20k or 128i with no cargo room costs $30k, why bother? Team up with your spouse and then you can afford a $40k car with premium sound and "sport tuned" handling and a big cargo area and you both are fine with putting the kid seat in the back.

If you are a tip earner you're fucked even harder, their minimum wage is $2.13/hr and you are more likely to be a tip earner if you're a woman or minority (who are also the majority of folks that exited the work force in 2020). I know one single person who bought a new 128i, but she is a bartender and also sells drugs under the table.

So, I think of it this way. Buy an SUV from a car company who supports motorsports. Think of it like a $40k donation to their racing dept and you get a free SUV. I've heard some Ferrari fans spin it this way. $300k donation to their F1 division gets you a free base model 2 seater.

People are shitting on BMW for "catering" to the chinese market, but you know what, they're buying new cars. We aren't.
VERY on point, BMW is another car maker, and ultimately its their bottom line they care about, and if it means ruining the shrinking western world enthusiast market, then so be it, I have a VERY hard time believing we are of any significance of the new car market.
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