11-05-2013, 08:09 PM | #1 |
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Power potential limited?
I would be interested in having a technical discussion about what limitations there might be of the S55.
With the small Mitsubishi turbos already wheezing up to 18.9 psi on a stock M3/M4, is there any real hope of significant gains to be unleashed by the aftermarket? For me this is an important issue as I do not feel that this car is going to be competitive in a straight line against the next gen C63 AMG, the Cadillacs, or even the Mustang in the power department. I don't think this car shed enough weight to make 430hp acceptable. Thoughts? Last edited by basscadet; 11-05-2013 at 10:14 PM.. |
11-05-2013, 08:26 PM | #2 |
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Theres always freeing up everything and a retune for some minor gains but hard to tell right now isnt it?
I can see a new turbo coming out consisting of stock size housing and redone internals like CBRD or FP has done perhaps? |
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11-05-2013, 08:43 PM | #3 |
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I'm not exactly technical, but I would expect there will be plenty of tolerance left in the turbos to get more out of them.
Air intake and intercooling upgrades also. More extremely there will probably eventually be plenty of options for bigger turbos. None of it will come cheap. At all. |
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11-05-2013, 08:47 PM | #4 |
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11-05-2013, 09:19 PM | #5 |
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You live in Kansas, you have plentiful access access to e85 most likely, your tuning potential is enormous just from that fueling.
On e85 and with some mild bolt-ons, I'd expect reliable 500 crank HP all day long. Just because the fuel is so knock resistant and so tuning friendly. That being said, really? Car is not even out yet and you feel it's not powerful enough? If you prefer the feeling of big displacement, then go get an AMG. |
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11-05-2013, 10:16 PM | #7 |
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I've heard rumors of BMW making their ECU more and more "mod resistant". Not my area of expertise at all and on top of that just a rumor.
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11-05-2013, 10:20 PM | #8 | |
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I want a M3 in my garage. But I don't want some kid with a JB4 and 5 year-old 335i to blow my doors off on the street either. |
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11-06-2013, 12:06 AM | #9 |
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IMHO BMW made a mistake by not retaining the S65 at 4.4L(440hp stock). an engine they already have. They dropped in the S55 to save money on production. Plain and simple. No special M motors anymore. BMW said it was to save gas, nonsense. Audi, Mercedes, Ford, GM still use V8's.
The S55 will be a fine engine. At the very least I wish BMW just said "look, we want to save money by having the parts shared with all of our products." Rather than the false mantra of saving gas. I don't drive an M to save damn gas. |
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11-06-2013, 01:03 AM | #10 | |
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I made 425hp on an evo ix with e85. Could have gone more. |
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11-06-2013, 01:03 AM | #11 | |
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11-06-2013, 01:04 AM | #12 | ||
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11-06-2013, 03:14 AM | #13 | |
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But regardless it is just software and there are lots of clever people around to get around restrictions. |
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11-06-2013, 03:15 AM | #14 | |
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Agree with other posters on BMW probably making the ECU pretty much very hard to break in to with software mods. Expect piggybacks from Hartge, AC Schnitzer etc to give a 480-500hp tune pretty soon after release of the car. And remember that the 18,9PSI will only be seen under "worst case scenario" conditions, i.e high temperatures at high altitude with high humidity or similar. BMW wants to make sure that the S55 makes the announced HP under every circumstance and has said that boost will be adjusted according to conditions. This means that under ideal circumstances you will NOT see 18,9PSI of boost. Which also means that if you did have 18,9PSI of boost under ideal conditions, the engine will make considerably more than 430hp. So if the turbos are big enough to flow enough air at 18,9PSI under high temeprature/low air density conditions, they should be large enough for a lot more than 430hp at sea level and normal temperatures (if you can trick them into making the same boost then - which is where the tunes come into play ). |
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11-06-2013, 06:08 AM | #15 | |
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Until today no one has ever tuned an BMW F..-Model ECU. Also well known tuners with tight relations with BMW as AC Schnitzer only offer Tuning-Boxes (piggybacks), because it is nearly impossible to tune the ECU itself. According to my informations there are not alone electronical/software problems but also simple "mechanical" problems to open the ECU-box without destroying it ... minimum one of two boxes breaks if they try to open it - the most simple tuning blocker!!! Greetings BMW M3 CRT |
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11-06-2013, 07:44 AM | #16 | ||
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I will say that I wish BMW would have made a case for a smaller displacement turbo V8 for the M3/M4 like Mercedes is doing with AMG. Quote:
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11-06-2013, 07:51 AM | #17 | |
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Now, of course, the two questions are: 1) What are stock boost levels on the car at average air density (14-16psi, tapering off?) 2) What is likelihood we will see piggyback ECUs? 3) Are piggyback systems too difficult to quickly remove for visits to dealership? If there is a good chance that there will be power untapped on this car in the future, I do not mind waiting until Spring (?) to order one as a leased car. If, however, this is an unlikely scenario I am hesitant to wait and might look at alternatives. |
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11-06-2013, 07:54 AM | #18 | |
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I don't know if that engine is too big/heavy for the M3/M4, but I can only drool thinking about how that car would have truly been the "hot 3er" that we all wanted. |
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11-06-2013, 07:59 AM | #19 | |
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11-06-2013, 09:03 AM | #20 | |
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The S63Tü is a little bit heavy (230kg) for the lightweight M3/M4 but with the neasures taken at the S55, I am sure it would be possible to bring the weight down to the S65 weight or at least to 210kg. |
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11-06-2013, 09:13 AM | #21 | ||
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Very well said ... and in the famous german car magazine SPORTAUTO in an interview the M3 development chief says more or less that cost savings were an important factor also on the engine decision !!! My opinion is also that the M-GmbH made an big mistake with their engine decision ... as I postet in an other thread in this forum: Quote:
Last edited by BMW M3 CRT; 11-06-2013 at 09:29 AM.. |
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11-06-2013, 09:50 AM | #22 |
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Regarding the potential of the S55 as the OP inquired about, well, where do things stand with the N54 today on stock turbos? The S55 should be hitting those levels at least in short order. I believe the S55 has forged internals also, or at least a forged crank, so that too may open more doors. Not sure if Valvrtronic is more win or break even or detriment from a tuning perspective.
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