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      05-27-2016, 08:52 AM   #1
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Abstain or Third Party Vote?

Would like to do a poll, but don't know how...

Regarding those that will either abstain from voting or vote for a third party;

It is said that the those that do vote for third party/independent what have you (Gary Johnson, Mitt, Paul R.) are essentially giving it to Hillary.

So, with that said, for ONLY those that plan to abstain or vote third party, would you TYPICALLY vote Dem or Rep.?
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      05-27-2016, 09:25 AM   #2
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In the 1992 election Ross Perot ran as a third party, and split the republican vote - which gave the election to Bill Clinton. So a vote for Perot was was essentially a vote for Clinton. In this round, it remains to be seen if a abstaining, or a write-in, or vote for a third candidate would be a de-facto vote for Hillary or Trump?
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      05-27-2016, 09:29 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
In the 1992 election Ross Perot ran as a third party, and split the republican vote - which gave the election to Bill Clinton. So a vote for Perot was was essentially a vote for Clinton. In this round, it remains to be seen if a abstaining, or a write-in, or vote for a third candidate would be a de-facto vote for Hillary or Trump?
Correct, I am wondering if this election will be different? Will the people not voting or going 3rd party, would they be doing so for the dissatisfaction of Hillary or Trump?
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      05-27-2016, 11:59 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kidscollege$ View Post
So, with that said, for ONLY those that plan to abstain or vote third party, would you TYPICALLY vote Dem or Rep.?
I typically vote libertarian. Always have. That said, if I were in a state that wasn't pretty much sure of going toward the Democrat...ANY Democrat, then I would hold my nose and vote Republican. So yes, I would vote for Trump to stop Hillary. I know how bad she'd be; Trump is largely unknown. Not happy about either of course. No real libertarian is.
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      05-27-2016, 12:06 PM   #5
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I am voting for the Supreme Court.

My only issue in this election is who gets to pick a huge contingent of the court.
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      05-27-2016, 12:17 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eflatminor View Post
I typically vote libertarian. Always have. That said, if I were in a state that wasn't pretty much sure of going toward the Democrat...ANY Democrat, then I would hold my nose and vote Republican. So yes, I would vote for Trump to stop Hillary. I know how bad she'd be; Trump is largely unknown. Not happy about either of course. No real libertarian is.
If I sit back and look at a big picture and differences between Libertarian and Conservative, not Republican (as in todays Republican), but conservative. There really is not much of a difference except military? I know thats a big one, but if I understand Libertarians correctly, they are really about the Constitution?
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      05-27-2016, 01:32 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Kidscollege$ View Post
If I sit back and look at a big picture and differences between Libertarian and Conservative, not Republican (as in todays Republican), but conservative. There really is not much of a difference except military? I know thats a big one, but if I understand Libertarians correctly, they are really about the Constitution?
I would agree with that. Libertarians and old school conservatives tend to agree on most fiscal matters and with limiting the size of government. We both tend to believe that if the government has to implement an idea by force, then it's probably a bad idea to begin with (voluntary is were it's at!). We both tend to agree on taxes in that lower is better, though libertarians generally take the stance that taxing labor via an income tax is immoral and antithetical to the notion of a free country. We both want the government to live within it's means, using debt only in the most extraordinary of circumstances. Where we tend to disagree is with respect to the level of military interventionism. Most libertarians in my experience want the biggest, baddest military the world has ever known, but also feel we shouldn't meddle in the affairs of other countries to the extent we have in the past. It's a nuanced position that really depends on the specific circumstances, but we'd certainly not have as many troops around the world as we do today and we're less likely to send our boys overseas to fight on behalf of another country. Libertarians are not isolationists as many like to claim. We want MORE interaction between countries, more travel and most importantly, more trade. We just tend to reject the notion that military and/or CIA-like intervention in other countries is our duty. Of course, if our nation is under attack, unleash the dogs of hell!

Similarly, some like to equate libertarianism with anarchy (often using the ridiculous comparison to Somalia). No, libertarians tend to argue in favor of a central government, just one that is strictly limited in its powers. The Constitution's limitations to federal powers (enumerated and everything!), at least in the pre-Progressive era, is a perfect example of what we want: A strong federal government that cannot meddle in the lives of individual citizens that haven't done anything to infringe on the rights of another.

Libertarians tend to be students of economic history and the type of people that base decisions (laws, rules, etc) on results and not intentions. The results of collectivist and centrally planned societies throughout history are not good. Really, really bad in fact. We therefore seek to have less collectivism, less redistribution, less central planning. The Progressive notion of increasing collectivist-type policies drip by drip over time has taken it's toll on our once free society...and we have the debt, meddling laws and taxes to prove it. What a shame.

Let the flaming begin...
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      05-27-2016, 03:54 PM   #8
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^ Worthy post.
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      05-27-2016, 09:56 PM   #9
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You need to understand this... Trump IS the 3rd party candidate. There is no Republican party candidate.
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      05-31-2016, 10:07 AM   #10
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Said it before, but I see it going the other way this time. Bernie-supporters hate Hillary and conservatives won't vote for her. The fracturing of the dems gives the vote to Trump.
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      05-31-2016, 10:30 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fravel View Post
Said it before, but I see it going the other way this time. Bernie-supporters hate Hillary and conservatives won't vote for her. The fracturing of the dems gives the vote to Trump.
In another light isn't the GOP split on Trump right now? Last I was reading the RNC was panicking trying to find a way to disqualify him.

Should be an interesting election.
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      05-31-2016, 10:34 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Beartato View Post
In another light isn't the GOP split on Trump right now? Last I was reading the RNC was panicking trying to find a way to disqualify him.

Should be an interesting election.
Yeah, but that's just the party leaders trying to strong-arm the populace so they can keep an establishment guy in there. The republicans that I've talked to aren't necessarily gung-ho for Trump, but would support him. The democrats are all hardline-Bernie or hardline-Hillary.
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      05-31-2016, 10:52 AM   #13
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I'm registered Decline to State so no primary vote anyways. Come the election I'm writing in my buddy who is the mayor of San Diego Kevin Faulconer. I think he was considering in outer years but with the choices available now is as good a time as any
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      05-31-2016, 11:33 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede
I'm registered Decline to State so no primary vote anyways. Come the election I'm writing in my buddy who is the mayor of San Diego Kevin Faulconer. I think he was considering in outer years but with the choices available now is as good a time as any
I can understand your sentiment, but in the end your write-in will become a vote for Hillary. CA is more democrat than republican, and Hillary is still favored over Bernie in the state. By writing in a conservative candidate who realistically can't win, you remove a vote for Trump - and therefore you hand your vote to Hillary.
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      05-31-2016, 01:13 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
I can understand your sentiment, but in the end your write-in will become a vote for Hillary. CA is more democrat than republican, and Hillary is still favored over Bernie in the state. By writing in a conservative candidate who realistically can't win, you remove a vote for Trump - and therefore you hand your vote to Hillary.
Not sure I agree with your conclusion. I would think CA is going D no matter who they run. If that's true, a write in candidate (or a vote for someone other than a D or R) isn't going to make a difference.

Unless you think Trump has a chance to take CA. Do you?
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      05-31-2016, 01:50 PM   #16
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Quote:
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I would agree with that. Libertarians and old school conservatives tend to agree .....
Well said, and I pretty much agree, as a mostly libertarian myself.
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      05-31-2016, 01:57 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eflatminor View Post
Not sure I agree with your conclusion. I would think CA is going D no matter who they run. If that's true, a write in candidate (or a vote for someone other than a D or R) isn't going to make a difference.

Unless you think Trump has a chance to take CA. Do you?
I am not sure about CA, but I am hearing that some Hillary supporters may go to Trump if the Bern gets in.

What is interesting is some of the union voters have common thoughts as Trump...bring jobs back, change the trade agreements, end NAFTA etc. I dont hear any of that from Killary or the Burn.
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      05-31-2016, 04:48 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eflatminor
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
I can understand your sentiment, but in the end your write-in will become a vote for Hillary. CA is more democrat than republican, and Hillary is still favored over Bernie in the state. By writing in a conservative candidate who realistically can't win, you remove a vote for Trump - and therefore you hand your vote to Hillary.
Not sure I agree with your conclusion. I would think CA is going D no matter who they run. If that's true, a write in candidate (or a vote for someone other than a D or R) isn't going to make a difference.

Unless you think Trump has a chance to take CA. Do you?
Not sure if Trump has a chance in CA. I would have said no prior to Obama, but between Bernie's strong support and the general loathing of the Clinton's, strange things could happen....
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      06-01-2016, 07:58 AM   #19
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I never understood the idea of disliking all of them so not voting at all. In the end I will vote for the one I dislike the least. I think it is obvious that a Republican running as an independent will hurt Trump more than Hillary.
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      06-01-2016, 08:09 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eflatminor View Post
Similarly, some like to equate libertarianism with anarchy (often using the ridiculous comparison to Somalia). No, libertarians tend to argue in favor of a central government, just one that is strictly limited in its powers. The Constitution's limitations to federal powers (enumerated and everything!), at least in the pre-Progressive era, is a perfect example of what we want: A strong federal government that cannot meddle in the lives of individual citizens that haven't done anything to infringe on the rights of another.
Wrong, people equate libertarianism to free market anarchy, these are two VERY different things. They take lassiez faire principles and turn them up to 11. I have libertarian friends and my typically "gotcha" if I feel like trolling them are discussions on healthcare. They are against socialized healthcare for obvious reasons which I understand but healthcare is different in the instance that doctors take a hippocratic oath. You're going to get care whether or not you can afford it which makes medical care unlike any other service in economics. So either way, you're paying for it either through taxes, or through increased prices/insurance premiums due to you picking up the slack for those who can't afford to pay their hospital bills, so how does one go about deciding which one is more economically efficient?

Quote:
Libertarians tend to be students of economic history and the type of people that base decisions (laws, rules, etc) on results and not intentions. The results of collectivist and centrally planned societies throughout history are not good. Really, really bad in fact. We therefore seek to have less collectivism, less redistribution, less central planning. The Progressive notion of increasing collectivist-type policies drip by drip over time has taken it's toll on our once free society...and we have the debt, meddling laws and taxes to prove it. What a shame.

Let the flaming begin...
False, libertarians just follow a strict qualitative approach to economics, most of which has never been proven in real world or theoretically through mathematics. It's why the Austrian School of Economic thought isn't taken nearly as serious as the Chicago school of thought. People who don't know any better associate the city Chicago with liberal, corrupt nutjobs but in this instance the Chicago school of thought is very conservative. It's backed with shit like empirical evidence and observed history.

Meanwhile libertarians live in their fantasy world of all inflation bad and how if we went back to the gold standard, we'd be better off. Just a few years ago folks like Ron Paul and the other crazies kept spouting off about how we were on the brink of hyperinflation, don't hear much from them anymore.
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      06-01-2016, 08:24 AM   #21
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I literally don't understand how anyone could conclude that there is any sort of equivalency between Hillary and Trump. I don't mean that rhetorically--I am legitimately baffled that anyone could look at these two candidates and have *any* doubt about who they should vote for.

Cover up the names on the top of the CV, and what are you left with? One candidate has devoted her life to public service, has served in the Senate and the executive branch, and has a deep and nuanced understanding of the issues the country faces.

The other inherited a business which he has had mixed results building; he's never held any kind of elective office or indeed been chosen or advanced to *any* position on his own merits at all. He displays both a total lack of knowledge of and a complete lack of interest in any of the major policy concerns of the day. He lies routinely, shamelessly, and matter of factly--not just about his policies (though, yes, those), but about simple facts that are easy to check (like whether he catfished a reporter 20 years ago).

One of these people is qualified to be President. The other is not. That's not politics. That's a simple, demonstrable statement of fact.

No matter how much you dislike Hillary, or think she's corrupt, or disagree with her, we've had people like her as President before. The Republic has endured.

We've never, ever had anyone like Trump as President before. I'm not so sure the Republic can survive him.
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      06-01-2016, 08:32 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh (PA) View Post
I literally don't understand how anyone could conclude that there is any sort of equivalency between Hillary and Trump. I don't mean that rhetorically--I am legitimately baffled that anyone could look at these two candidates and have *any* doubt about who they should vote for.

Cover up the names on the top of the CV, and what are you left with? One candidate has devoted her life to public service, has served in the Senate and the executive branch, and has a deep and nuanced understanding of the issues the country faces.
What section lists where she wiped servers "with a cloth"? Under her Secretary of State section, will she mentioned how the State Dept completely fucked up in Benghazi?

Quote:
The other inherited a business which he has had mixed results building; he's never held any kind of elective office or indeed been chosen or advanced to *any* position on his own merits at all. He displays both a total lack of knowledge of and a complete lack of interest in any of the major policy concerns of the day. He lies routinely, shamelessly, and matter of factly--not just about his policies (though, yes, those), but about simple facts that are easy to check (like whether he catfished a reporter 20 years ago).
His business is actually quite successful. He does flip flop, sometimes in the exact same sentence which is impressive as much as it is disconcerting. Hillary has absolutely zero conviction on anything, received "speaking fees" from Wall Street firms yet won't release transcripts of these "speeches". She's a puppet who will simply say whatever tested the highest with focus groups that week. People feel like they can't trust her.

Quote:
One of these people is qualified to be President. The other is not. That's not politics. That's a simple, demonstrable statement of fact.

No matter how much you dislike Hillary, or think she's corrupt, or disagree with her, we've had people like her as President before. The Republic has endured.

We've never, ever had anyone like Trump as President before. I'm not so sure the Republic can survive him.
Neither are qualified to be President IMO. And the country will survive just fine with either in office. If the US can live through Jimmy Carter, I figure we can handle pretty much anything.

I also didn't think people existed who actually SUPPORT Clinton, I just figured they found her to be the lesser of two evils. Oh, and there's this gem too: http://www.businessinsider.com/every...scandal-2015-4

TL DR: Hillary Clinton set up an independent foundation to launder money, and thus they cannot be proven to be bribes. As if people needed another reason to not trust her. A Clinton administration would arguably have scandals and cover-ups like mad.

Last edited by fecurtis; 06-01-2016 at 08:40 AM..
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