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      05-22-2016, 04:00 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by StatenEye View Post
Umm they already did. Its down by 80%.
So what's the problem?
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      05-22-2016, 04:01 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by gthal View Post
I hear you BUT....

"the vast

Ultimately, I agree with your last statement but there is huge propaganda all around this issue. I also think there is more "risk" in ignoring it than in believing there is at least a reasonable validity to it. The downside of ignoring it may be huge. The downside of dealing with it is far less so. So, IMO, until it is proven absolutely to be a non-issue (which it has not been), it is only responsible to take it seriously given the views of the broader scientific community. Just my take.
Excellent point. Well summarized.
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      05-22-2016, 04:03 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by StatenEye View Post
Well ill go with Stephen Hawking and the other 98% of the scientific community, no offense.
None taken.

They still can't prove the science. They have models that they can point in any direction they want and call it validated science.

Big names are great. Math is better.
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      05-22-2016, 04:07 PM   #48
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Even more stereotyping...
As rules of thumb go it's pretty damn accurate. When you have a fixed belief you tend not to investigate evidence against it because you're convinced it's wrong to start with...so why bother investigating something you already "know" the answer to?

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Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
Liberals fall back on stereotypes, slander, protests, etc as a means to an end. What they don't do is thoughtfully consider both sides of an argument. They only back the one blindly.
You're almost there. You just need to replace liberals with people in general because people are idiots and that's exactly how we argue. It's an extremely widespread problem, just look at all the people in the ON-TOPIC forums getting in extremely non-constructive arguments.
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      05-22-2016, 09:00 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes View Post
As rules of thumb go it's pretty damn accurate. When you have a fixed belief you tend not to investigate evidence against it because you're convinced it's wrong to start with...so why bother investigating something you already "know" the answer to?
That's exactly what I have done; I have investigated it. I already mentioned that Patrick Michaels has a differing opinion. He is a scientist at the University of Virginia (no conservative school that) and has used the scientific method to show that climate models used to predict globalwarmingclimatechange can not accurately predict what the climate is today using data collected that is over 10,000 years old. His methodology makes sense to try an validate climate models that are predicting the future climate by seeing if they can accurately predict what the climate is today. The Earth has seen drastic climate variation in its 4+Billion life span. The magnetic poles have moved. The geographic poles have moved. Deserts were once topical and vice versa. There are salt deposits 2,000 feet below the great lakes. All of these hard data indicate the climate changes and species go extinct all without man's intervention. You believe in a climatic status quo; I don't, because there is vast evidence (i.e. not predictive modeling) that indicates so. Al Gore has told us the climate will change drastically in the next 100 years. 100 years in the time scale of 4 Billion years is a molecule of a nat's fart in comparison. Reviewing temp data over the past 200 years or so to try and prove a trend is statistically insignificant not even considering the accuracy of the data collection and environmental differentiation in the location of where the data is collected (meaning man has built stuff in the last 200 years).

If politicians really cared about saving the planet for our children, they'd first start with not saddling them with $19 Trillion dollars of debt.
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      05-22-2016, 09:17 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
$19 Trillion dollars of debt.
I don't think you understand. The debt is hedged by our military which has such a huge margin of dominance over everyone else it's not even funny. What's the problem with getting into debt when you're the one calling the shots on when, if, and how you pay it back?
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      05-22-2016, 09:27 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
$19 Trillion dollars of debt.
I don't think you understand. The debt is hedged by our military which has such a huge margin of dominance over everyone else it's not even funny. What's the problem with getting into debt when you're the one calling the shots on when, if, and how you pay it back?
Is this humor?
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      05-22-2016, 10:34 PM   #52
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Is this humor?
No, I'm being completely serious. This is 100% what's going on. The beauty of it is it's self supporting since the debt helps finance our military. No state, even Russia or China can THINK of touching us in a conventional war. Nobody will use nukes to collect debt since both sides are annihilated. We are the 800lb gorilla until we come apart from the inside
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      05-23-2016, 04:52 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Is this humor?
It's funny when you get a Progressive in the room and show where the Government spends double the amount on social programs as it does the military, but somehow the debit is blamed on the Pentagon....

And he missed my point anyway
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      05-23-2016, 05:22 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
he missed my point anyway
I got your point, you talk about climate change being an intrinsic feature of the earth and say there is no good evidence to support man having an effect on the climate. This isn't a subject I know anything about so I didn't address it. If you go back to my original post about fixed beliefs you'll see I didn't support one argument or the other and instead suggested that trying to convince someone who's picked a spot on either side of the fence is a waste of time.
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      05-23-2016, 05:45 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wind Breezes View Post
I don't think you understand. The debt is hedged by our military which has such a huge margin of dominance over everyone else it's not even funny. What's the problem with getting into debt when you're the one calling the shots on when, if, and how you pay it back?
Wow. And all this time I thought the debt is "hedged" by our historically stellar performance at paying it back; after all the US had great borrowing power well before it had the world's largest military budget. And I have been thanking Alexander Hamilton. Back to the books for me I guess!
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      05-23-2016, 06:18 AM   #56
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Back to the books for me I guess!
Everyone suffers if we default and you're correct, we have excellent credit.

The thing is, we're holding a gun to everyone else's head, so we always get the best terms. We also have the straight dope on the eco of more or less every important western nation and many others through the noble efforts of our intelligence services, while in some cases those countries barely have adequate info on their own economies. This huge asymmetry means we can direct the world economy to the extent that it's massively bent in favor of our own borrowing habits.
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      05-23-2016, 06:47 AM   #57
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This is one of the most naive arguments I've ever heard. Our military is smallest it's then now since pre ww1. It's designed to be able to fight in two places at once. Why? Because if we get into one fight you still need to have the threat to discourage another. The point of a strong military is to discourage military action. If we have a weak one we encourage military aggression.

Taking that into account, we are at the most violent times in our lifetimes at the moment. Obama has literally decimated our military repeatedly. If anything we need a stronger one.

Our military budget accounts for approximately 30% of the total budget. Debt interest and social welfare programs the majority of the rest. The reason out debt is out of control us our debt, the interest we pay on it. Obama has more than doubled that. Almost tripled it. The extra debt interedt payments he has created are approaching the budget for the military. Even he said bush going to 6 trillion in debt was unamerican. But now we also need to increase military spending as obama has let things get oyt of control which is forcing future military action which was unnecessary. We are going to have to pay for the same land again in blood and treasure. What we do need to do to fix the balance is
1. Lower social welfare dramatically. This is done by creating jobs and a healthy economy, exactly what Obama hasn't done. This will raise taxes revenue and lower welfare costs
2. Start having other nations pay their share of the bill. The UN, NATO, are both almost entirely paid for by us. We protect Europe and the world for free. This comes out of the military budget. Start having other nations pay their fair share.
3. Lower spending. Sounds easy but hasn't been done since Kasich did it in the 90s.
4. Remove the cost of illegals. They drain billions as they use the system but don't pay into it. Either deport, or really seal the border then make them legal workers required to register and pay taxes but not citizens.

Do this and we can prevent unnecessary violence and at the same time lower the debt.
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      05-23-2016, 07:43 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundguy1
This is one of the most naive arguments I've ever heard. Our military is smallest it's then now since pre ww1. It's designed to be able to fight in two places at once. Why? Because if we get into one fight you still need to have the threat to discourage another. The point of a strong military is to discourage military action. If we have a weak one we encourage military aggression.

Taking that into account, we are at the most violent times in our lifetimes at the moment. Obama has literally decimated our military repeatedly. If anything we need a stronger one.

Our military budget accounts for approximately 30% of the total budget. Debt interest and social welfare programs the majority of the rest. The reason out debt is out of control us our debt, the interest we pay on it. Obama has more than doubled that. Almost tripled it. The extra debt interedt payments he has created are approaching the budget for the military. Even he said bush going to 6 trillion in debt was unamerican. But now we also need to increase military spending as obama has let things get oyt of control which is forcing future military action which was unnecessary. We are going to have to pay for the same land again in blood and treasure. What we do need to do to fix the balance is
1. Lower social welfare dramatically. This is done by creating jobs and a healthy economy, exactly what Obama hasn't done. This will raise taxes revenue and lower welfare costs
2. Start having other nations pay their share of the bill. The UN, NATO, are both almost entirely paid for by us. We protect Europe and the world for free. This comes out of the military budget. Start having other nations pay their fair share.
3. Lower spending. Sounds easy but hasn't been done since Kasich did it in the 90s.
4. Remove the cost of illegals. They drain billions as they use the system but don't pay into it. Either deport, or really seal the border then make them legal workers required to register and pay taxes but not citizens.

Do this and we can prevent unnecessary violence and at the same time lower the debt.
Great points on spending but to drive home my point of we indeed do not abide by capitalism: the reason we are in debt is bc we have a major trade deficit and our gdp is down significantly. In the past, we would borrow but cover the interest and make money on top of that. Now we no longer produce, we import and if we do increase purchasing power, China owns our money. The 1 percent that makes and HOLDS 70% percent of the money in this country are still doing fine, they gave this country away and the middle class pay through interest charges on the the inflated real estate market, taxes and other vehicles of credit debt including education. The TRUE reason the credit market failed is becuse the assets of sale were far over valued and produced No financial yeild for the buyers. Citizens that paid mortgages in tuition are going into a fruitless employment market while being riddled with debt. The difference between the rich and middle class is greater than it has ever been.

This structure of capitalism only "works" because the middle class is giving risk free investments and return to the 1%. In return, they condemned the middle class to loans that far out weigh the rate of return. As one of the previous posters said, this is a bastardized mutation of democracy and capitalism. Once Borrowing, - not earning - of the middle class ceased and they starting defaulting on loans sold by banks that made a loan shark look like Jesus Himself, the economy fell apart. No one was paying the ARMs, they were jumping from house to a more expensive house swapping one note for a larger note. House prices were driven by demand but they were paid for by credit and covered by sales of other over inflated homes. No one purchased a home with cash earned via trade other than the trade of credit debt, how can that be considered capitalism when the consumer is fully leveraged and equipped with phantom purchasing power? The middle class can no longer earn wages in the job market fairly, how are they expected to pay the over inflated tuition bills? I don't really think we can call an economy that allows the credit markets to get to the point that it's at capitalism.

The government indeed controls the credit market via rates and we therefore cannot consider an economy, based on debt, capitalist. Lastly, once the govt stepped in to aid the banks Capitalism ceased to be by definition.

We should start a new thread for this. USA - Capitalism and Democracy
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      05-23-2016, 08:34 AM   #59
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Still trying to figure out how we are spending too much on the military. Isis needs to be destroyed. Iran thanks to Obama needs to be invaded in all likelyhood, North Korea is led by a child who is flexing his nuscles, China is trying to expand and wants to pull a Russia, and Putin is flexing it's muscles already. Perfect time to downsize.
We now have less ships and transport capacity than we did going all the way back to WW1, number of troops is smallest since pre ww2, and the air force has the least amount of planes in its history. Unless you plan on actually using nukes to fight, Obama has left us in the worst military readiness in over 100 yrs.
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      05-23-2016, 08:36 AM   #60
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As for the thread, how about calling it the US capitalist economy, the economic engine of the world and why almost anything good worldwide is a result of it.
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      05-23-2016, 09:10 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
Still trying to figure out how we are spending too much on the military. Isis needs to be destroyed. Iran thanks to Obama needs to be invaded in all likelyhood, North Korea is led by a child who is flexing his nuscles, China is trying to expand and wants to pull a Russia, and Putin is flexing it's muscles already. Perfect time to downsize.
We now have less ships and transport capacity than we did going all the way back to WW1, number of troops is smallest since pre ww2, and the air force has the least amount of planes in its history. Unless you plan on actually using nukes to fight, Obama has left us in the worst military readiness in over 100 yrs.
Agreed on most points but I really think diplomacy is the best mitigation to war. "Heres how we can help you make money... now were friends" but unfortunately; no one, that matters, needs us for that anymore. Now these overpopulated countries are rich AND powerful. Not sure how we could ever stand a chance to be honest butttt our saving grace is China has a vested interest in the financial success of this country so were safe from being obliterated.


Good light read regarding the negatives of socialism. Opposition to those quoting Sweden's success.
Swedish Economist Schools Sanders On The Ravages Of Socialism. Election '16: Socialist Bernie Sanders believes nations “like Denmark, like Sweden, and Norway” employ the welfare-state economic model that the U.S. should replicate. An economist from one of these countries shows how wrong he is.

http://www.investors.com/politics/ed...-of-socialism/

Capitalism is great for the people but with regulations and govt. intervention can we truly call ours a capitalist economy? When you take the power away from individuals you are taking their ability to participate in the economy. We can call it dog eat dog but many of these corporation that are putting small business owners out of business and exporting to work to other countries are playing by different rules to be honest. Loan sharks and drug dealers have their business deemed illegal but corporations can sell tobacco, alcohol and sub prime loans? What gives? How is this a fair economy?

My opinion is; we are not fully democratic and we are surely far far away from an ideal or even valid model of capitalism. Rules have been bent and by the definition of the word itself we have put ourselves out of the scope on many, many levels.

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      05-23-2016, 09:34 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by StatenEye View Post
Capitalism is great for the people but with regulations and govt. intervention can we truly call ours a capitalist economy? When you take the power away from individuals you are taking their ability to participate in the economy. We can call it dog eat dog but many of these corporation that are putting small business owners out of business and exporting to work to other countries are playing by different rules to be honest. Loan sharks and drug dealers have their business deemed illegal but corporations can sell tobacco, alcohol and sub prime loans? What gives? How is this a fair economy?
You're almost there. NAFTA is one of the reasons these big corporations are moving away. Ex. Carrier going to Mexico. Another is the high corporate tax. The US is the highest in the world. Slash it in half and the jobs and corporations will come flooding back, resulting in higher tax revenues from all the new jobs and additional companies paying taxes. As for loan sharks and drug dealers compared to tobacco and sub prime loans I disagree. One deals in illegal substances that can kill you in an instant, the other doesn't break your kneecaps if you don't pay back with 50% interest in a week.

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My opinion is; we are not fully democratic and we are surely far far away from an ideal or even valid model of capitalism. Rules have been bent and by the definition of the word itself we have put ourselves out of the scope on many, many levels.
We never were a democracy. We're a republic. It's even stated in the pledge of allegance. As for capitalism, regulations, rules, subsidies, etc kill it. These need to be scaled back to reasonable levels. Pre obama, mortgage regulations were to lax as per laws passed by Clinton. Their answer was to make them to strict and to try to punish banks with additional unrelated rules. They ended up just punishing us as the banks as always passed the costs down to us. Remove some of the regulations, maybe go back to Glass Steagall, lower corporate taxes, and either repeal NAFTA or penalize companies that leave the USA with their manufacturing jobs, maybe all of them that have gone since it was passed, and things would turn around fast.
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      05-23-2016, 10:15 AM   #63
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You're almost there. NAFTA is one of the reasons these big corporations are moving away. Ex. Carrier going to Mexico. Another is the high corporate tax. The US is the highest in the world. Slash it in half and the jobs and corporations will come flooding back, resulting in higher tax revenues from all the new jobs and additional companies paying taxes. As for loan sharks and drug dealers compared to tobacco and sub prime loans I disagree. One deals in illegal substances that can kill you in an instant, the other doesn't break your kneecaps if you don't pay back with 50% interest in a week.
Agreed with most but Alcohol is worse than any other drug regarding civil safety. I think this has more to due with revenue generated by fight the war on drugs than the safety of the public people. Annual deaths from alcohol and cigarettes (I know; "can't be totally proven) farrr out weigh deaths from illegal drugs.

Nearly 88,0009 people (approximately 62,000 men and 26,000 women9) die from alcohol-related causes annually, making it the fourth leading preventable cause of death in the United States. In 2014, alcohol-impaired driving fatalities accounted for 9,967 deaths (31 percent of overall driving fatalities).

As for the knee caps. Loan sharks charge 5 points, i believe, on short term loans. No knee caps are broken, since they are VERY VERY careful who they lend to. You have to be backed and spoken for by someone in the organization that will take responsibility for your loan in the event of a default, the backer (consignee) is compensated ~1 point. The repayment rate is very high as collateral is almost always posted and due diligence is always done. Many loan requests are denied for being nonsensical or bc the lender feels the borrower cannot not repay. Many small business receive a head-shot for gaining bank loan approval, this is actually key to their success. Banks on the other hand destroy lives with their subprime ARM loans which have put many many American on the street. No due diligence was done and on the back end they were packaging the mtgs in tranches and selling them as IG debt. INSANITY!!

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We never were a democracy. We're a republic. It's even stated in the pledge of allegance. As for capitalism, regulations, rules, subsidies, etc kill it. These need to be scaled back to reasonable levels. Pre obama, mortgage regulations were to lax as per laws passed by Clinton. Their answer was to make them to strict and to try to punish banks with additional unrelated rules. They ended up just punishing us as the banks as always passed the costs down to us. Remove some of the regulations, maybe go back to Glass Steagall, lower corporate taxes, and either repeal NAFTA or penalize companies that leave the USA with their manufacturing jobs, maybe all of them that have gone since it was passed, and things would turn around fast.
Agreed here. More focus needs to be taken from the bottom line and invested in the infrastructure of this country. This is were we have failed to perpetuate "a good thing we had going" rather we constantly chased the bottom line at the expense of the meat of this country..
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      05-23-2016, 10:42 AM   #64
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This climate change and extinction is the norm.
Says the alien overlord who set it in motion
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      05-23-2016, 10:43 AM   #65
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Sorry we need to farm humans soon
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      05-23-2016, 10:50 AM   #66
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The probes are just to check our battery potential?
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