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      05-22-2016, 10:08 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
Yup. Poor dinosaurs. If we were only around to save them.
No, you have that wrong; we would have killed them off FASTER...
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      05-22-2016, 10:21 AM   #24
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No, you have that wrong; we would have killed them off FASTER...
I want a t-Rex rug.
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      05-22-2016, 10:24 AM   #25
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Most of these "extinctions" are a tadpole with a mutation that lives in one small pond. Not something common and widespread. Sorry, could care less about a mutant tadpole. Maybe I could swallow one whole chugging a microbrew.
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      05-22-2016, 11:14 AM   #26
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Isn't the extinction of species part of evolution in action? I haven't seen the film, but is any consideration/airtime given to the emergence of new species?

https://www.theguardian.com/science/.../new-to-nature

And this same thing apparently happened at the end of the Devonian Period:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devonian

Elon Musk and Tesla were involved in the making of this film - perhaps a conflict of interest?
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      05-22-2016, 11:44 AM   #27
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Jeez the natural extinction rate should be 1 in 1 million per year it current 1000 times faster than that. If you think sacrificing 10000 sharks per day in not impactfull on their ecosystem you are poorly informed. Or vastly reducing the habitat of forest dwellers does not impact species or the 40% reduction in plankton in the past 50 years is "natural" then I'm truly scared for our future.

I thought the knowledge level would be a bit higher around here but it seems there were on such a basic level of understanding of out own ecosystem. Even with mostly educated college graduates and professionals here, some honestly believe non stop pollution, harvesting of natural land habitats, hunting endangered species such as whales, elephants and wild felines and over fishing of our seas will HAVE NO IMPACT ON OUR EARTH. Unreal.

The greatest mind of our time is telling us; climate change is real and it is largely a result our doings and you guys would rather listen to garbage journalists pushing stories of the Kardashians on their front page?

One quote for Hawking

?As we stand at the brink of a second nuclear age and a period of unprecedented climate change, scientists have a special responsibility, once again to inform the public and to advise leaders about the perils that humanity faces,? he said. ?As scientists we understand the dangers of nuclear weapons and their devastation effects,

and we are learning how human activities and technologies are affecting climate systems in ways that may forever change life on Earth.

?As citizens of the world, we have a duty to share that knowledge. We have a duty.?

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...4061136AAUfAZs

It amazes me that we can see the over fishing and harvesting of the land and still say it's a myth.

100 million sharks

Using data on shark catches, discards and mortality rates worldwide, the researchers estimated that approximately100 million sharks*are killed per year by humans. However, they add that this is a conservative estimate, and the true number could be as high as 273 million sharks killed annually by humans.Aug 14, 2014

I just don't get it.
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      05-22-2016, 12:18 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
Liberals fall back on stereotypes, slander, protests, etc as a means to an end. What they don't do is thoughtfully consider both sides of an argument. They only back the one blindly. Case in point, climate change.

Results that come out negative against it are covered over or ostracized. Results that back it up are broadcasted immediately to the world. We need to relax, take a breath, and get real data that will take decades and stop giving the left the go ahead to use this to attack the capitalism that has allowed us to be the strongest economic engine ever known and whose economy has raised the living standard of all people worldwide.

Oh, and I have yet to meet in 50 years the creationist person who's 100% by the bible. If I do I'll hit him in the head with a fossil.
Steven Hawking is a hack. Replace him a Cambridge with Fundguy at once. It so sad to see economics equated to success, unreal even. This is outrageous, there is clear scientific data published just search and read. Below you can see their combined opinion via graph. Furthermore our economic model IS NOT SUCCESSFUL it is on the brink of failure and has failed in recent past and many times before. Capitalism works in theory and if followed correctly but corruption and the over burdening of the middle class has left many capitalist countries in debt. Also, are you aware of whats happening to the jobs market and consumer spending? Both down heavily, with many many middle class jobs disappearing - familiar with the Verizon strike??. Just as we over saturated the debt market we will over fish and over harvest our natural resources. This is insane that this is even an argument.

Heres article on ocean acidification. Its all there if you would just research and read. Are we serious??

https://web.archive.org/web/20080625...ature04095.pdf

So yes, its indeed real and researched.

Also see the article telling you how successful capitalism in rebuttal tor "go ahead to use this to attack the capitalism that has allowed us to be the strongest economic engine ever known and whose economy has raised the living standard of all people worldwide.

Our greed actually raped the rest of the world! and now that we have over stayed out welcome they are taking it back

http://www.epi.org/publication/china...cing-and-jobs/

This books tells you exactly how we used and raped many many countries around the world leaving their people with nothing, guess that was helping them?? unsure..

Hey but i guess hes lying too, seems to be the go to.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confes...onomic_Hit_Man
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      05-22-2016, 12:58 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
And the vast majority of what we consider to be scientific fact turns out to be incorrect as our understanding of the physical world increases.

Should we be good stewards of the planet? Absolutely. Should we panic everyone and start propagating unvalidated as science? No. Let's be sensible. That's all I ask.
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Originally Posted by StatenEye View Post
Steven Hawking is a hack. Replace him a Cambridge with Fundguy at once. It so sad to see economics equated to success, unreal even. This is outrageous, there is clear scientific data published just search and read. Below you can see their combined opinion via graph. Furthermore our economic model IS NOT SUCCESSFUL it is on the brink of failure and has failed in recent past and many times before. Capitalism works in theory and if followed correctly but corruption and the over burdening of the middle class has left many capitalist countries in debt. Also, are you aware of whats happening to the jobs market and consumer spending? Both down heavily, with many many middle class jobs disappearing - familiar with the Verizon strike??. Just as we over saturated the debt market we will over fish and over harvest our natural resources. This is insane that this is even an argument.

Heres article on ocean acidification. Its all there if you would just research and read. Are we serious??

https://web.archive.org/web/20080625...ature04095.pdf

So yes, its indeed real and researched.

Also see the article telling you how successful capitalism in rebuttal tor "go ahead to use this to attack the capitalism that has allowed us to be the strongest economic engine ever known and whose economy has raised the living standard of all people worldwide.

Our greed actually raped the rest of the world! and now that we have over stayed out welcome they are taking it back

http://www.epi.org/publication/china...cing-and-jobs/

This books tells you exactly how we used and raped many many countries around the world leaving their people with nothing, guess that was helping them?? unsure..

Hey but i guess hes lying too, seems to be the go to.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confes...onomic_Hit_Man
I'll quote myself here.
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      05-22-2016, 01:16 PM   #30
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Sharks are killed by Japanese to make shark fin soup. You going to go there and change their culture? Maybe the Indians should come here to stop you eating steak.
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      05-22-2016, 02:19 PM   #31
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OP, the Capitalist system of economics is the form of economics that most closely matches human nature (which is profit motivated), which is why it is successful and creates an enormous amount of wealth for everyone in it; it does not however create an equal amount of wealth for everyone, which is why you have a problem with it. Capitalism is not a form of government, however Socialism is a form of government, this is what has a lot of people confused. The US government was originally set up as a Democratic Republic, which is where a Capitalist economic system works best. Socialism doesn't work because ultimately it goes against human nature. The reason you can point to the Capitalist economic system failing in the US is because the politicians have bastardized the operation of the Democratic Republic, which leads to bastardization of capitalism. Socialism feeds off of Capitalism, see Venezuela as the most recent example of what happens. Socialism doesn't work in theory. What is outrageous is Venezuela sits on the largest oil reserves on Earth and the 2nd largest gold reserves on Earth, and its economy is an utter failure.

Now regarding extinction... What you are failing to understand from us college graduates and professionals who have a counter opinion about globalwarmingclimatechange (you get why I make it one word I hope - Fundguy1 does I'm sure) is humans ARE a part of nature. We are supposed to have an effect on the planet just as every other species does. Cars are a part of nature just as are coal electric plants, nuclear power plants, and trees are. What we understand and you fail to is the Earth is not a static place. The solar system is not a static place, life on Earth is not static. Which is the point of discussing the mass extinction events. The reason humans evolved as a species is because of climate change and mass extinction. That is what you fail to understand. What I've long said about Progressives is they are the most conservative about life on the planet because they want it to stay the same forever (i.e. be static) as they currently know it to exist. But the fossil record proves otherwise. The metaphysical question remains is why humans are presumed to understand such things as life and apply meaning and purpose to it. You'll get upset at this next sentence... If sharks understood life as we humans do, they'd figure out a way to not get caught. (Sorry if there is a trigger word in there somewhere). It could be possible that as humans advance (we've only been around for 200,000 years) we reform the Earth to be even more inhabitable for all life that lives on it. It could be the natural process we are following, with the pollution, and greenhouse gas emissions, are actually good for the planet. Evolution is an extremely slow process.

But as MKSixer stated previously, we should be good stewards of the planet. What is amazing is he, as a human, is able to cognitively understand what that means. He also understands that the sun eventually die and will burn the Earth in the process. He also understands that the Milkyway galaxy will eventually crash into Andromeda. And that may suck.
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      05-22-2016, 02:26 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
I want a t-Rex rug.
Aren't the dinosaurs living on some island off of Costa Rica? I hear you can go there and hunt them. Just need a real big F'n gun.
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      05-22-2016, 02:40 PM   #33
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This went exactly as one would have predicted
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      05-22-2016, 02:53 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
And the vast majority of what we consider to be scientific fact turns out to be incorrect as our understanding of the physical world increases.

I'll point out a few of the more glaring examples to remind everyone:

*The earth is flat.

*The earth is the center of the universe.

*Light comes from your eyes when you open them. This allows you to see.

*Man will never be able to travel more than 60 mph because he won't be able to breathe at that speed.

*The sound barrier is absolute. Anything attempting to go faster than the speed of sound will be destroyed.

*We will be in a global ice age by the year 2000.

I can go on and on. Should we be good stewards of the planet? Absolutely. Should we panic everyone and start propagating unvalidated as science? No. Let's be sensible. That's all I ask.
I hear you BUT....

"the vast majority of what we consider to be scientific fact turns out to be incorrect"... really? What an exaggeration You have no basis to make this claim and it really takes away from your point. I do agree that there are many scientific claims that eventually prove untrue. However, this was, IMO, much more common in the early days of science which most of your examples relate to. As you point out, as we learn more, we also become better at learning more. When a large portion of the scientific community believe something to be true, it is far more likely that it is, in fact, accurate today than at any other time in our history.

Someone could also suggest that, in the historical context, the a large number of correct scientific views were also claimed to be "false" by people who didn't want to believe it for their own reasons. I seem to remember lots of examples of scientists being persecuted for the science when other groups (political, religious, whatever) found those views to be contrary to what they had previously held to be true

To be honest, I'm not 100% certain on what is right here or not. Normal cyclical warming of the planet? Maybe. Accelerated by human intervention? Maybe. Catastrophic to the planet? Maybe. All I'm saying is that when a population of trained and educated scientists (much more so than anyone in this thread, regardless of how much they "think" they know) claim there is an issue, then my bias is to believe there is an issue. For example, as I mentioned earlier, when NASA claims the antarctic is building ice mass at a slower pace than the arctic is losing it, I tend to buy that argument more than people who write blogs and are associated with groups that don't want to believe it for their own agenda based reasons. Could NASA also be biased? Sure but if one was betting on bias, I would be betting against the bloggers and special interest groups.

Ultimately, I agree with your last statement but there is huge propaganda all around this issue. I also think there is more "risk" in ignoring it than in believing there is at least a reasonable validity to it. The downside of ignoring it may be huge. The downside of dealing with it is far less so. So, IMO, until it is proven absolutely to be a non-issue (which it has not been), it is only responsible to take it seriously given the views of the broader scientific community. Just my take.
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      05-22-2016, 02:54 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
You mean this?

http://www.nasa.gov/content/goddard/...record-maximum

https://www.skepticalscience.com/inc...termediate.htm

According to NASA, the decline in artic ice is far exceeding the growth in ice in the antartic. Quote... "Studies show that globally, the decreases in Arctic sea ice far exceed the increases in Antarctic sea ice." I think you have your quote backwards
Hmmm. That plays to my personal "collapsing magnetic field" theory.

Or pirates. Can't forget the Noodly One.

EDIT: The reason I even opened this thread - I thought it was a post about BMW getting out of racing. Imagine my relief.
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      05-22-2016, 03:19 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
I hear you BUT....

"the vast majority of what we consider to be scientific fact turns out to be incorrect"... really? What an exaggeration You have no basis to make this claim and it really takes away from your point. I do agree that there are many scientific claims that eventually prove untrue. However, this was, IMO, much more common in the early days of science which most of your examples relate to. As you point out, as we learn more, we also become better at learning more. When a large portion of the scientific community believe something to be true, it is far more likely that it is, in fact, accurate today than at any other time in our history.

Someone could also suggest that, in the historical context, the a large number of correct scientific views were also claimed to be "false" by people who didn't want to believe it for their own reasons. I seem to remember lots of examples of scientists being persecuted for the science when other groups (political, religious, whatever) found those views to be contrary to what they had previously held to be true

To be honest, I'm not 100% certain on what is right here or not. Normal cyclical warming of the planet? Maybe. Accelerated by human intervention? Maybe. Catastrophic to the planet? Maybe. All I'm saying is that when a population of trained and educated scientists (much more so than anyone in this thread, regardless of how much they "think" they know) claim their is an issue, then my bias is to believe there is an issue. For example, as I mentioned earlier, when NASA claims the antarctic is building ice mass at a slower pace than the arctic is losing it, I tend to buy that argument more than people who write blogs and are associated with groups that don't want to believe it for their own agenda based reasons. Could NASA also be biased? Sure but if one was betting on bias, I would be betting against the bloggers and special interest groups.

Ultimately, I agree with your last statement but there is huge propaganda all around this issue. I also think there is more "risk" in ignoring it than in believing there is at least a reasonable validity to it. The downside of ignoring it may be huge. The downside of dealing with it is far less so. So, IMO, until it is proven absolutely to be a non-issue (which it has not been), it is only responsible to take it seriously given the views of the broader scientific community. Just my take.
I'm actually quoting my dad, a Ph.D. educator and scientist who is an expert on statistics on this issue. He says that there is not enough validated weather data to draw this type of conclusion (Global Warming, climate change, name du jour.)

I'll go with his opinion.

P.S. These are only a few of the most famous ones. I can mention 40 or 50 more if you'd like.
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      05-22-2016, 03:23 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
But as MKSixer stated previously, we should be good stewards of the planet. What is amazing is he, as a human, is able to cognitively understand what that means. He also understands that the sun eventually die and will burn the Earth in the process. He also understands that the Milkyway galaxy will eventually crash into Andromeda. And that may suck.
I have it figured out.

I will drive my i8 in electric mode for 5 more miles per day and stave off the entire mess. Entropy be damned!!
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      05-22-2016, 03:26 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
I hear you BUT....

"the vast majority of what we consider to be scientific fact turns out to be incorrect"... really? What an exaggeration You have no basis to make this claim and it really takes away from your point. I do agree that there are many scientific claims that eventually prove untrue. However, this was, IMO, much more common in the early days of science which most of your examples relate to. As you point out, as we learn more, we also become better at learning more. When a large portion of the scientific community believe something to be true, it is far more likely that it is, in fact, accurate today than at any other time in our history.
Nope.

The examples I gave are a walk through scientific history in chronological order.
The last 3 examples are from the last 120 years.
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      05-22-2016, 03:29 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Nope.

The examples I gave are a walk through scientific history in chronological order.
The last 3 examples are from the last 120 years.
There is a huge difference in the last 120 years and in the last 10.

Heck, there is a huge difference in the last 2 or 3 years from the last 10!

My point was simply that sometimes emphasizing something TOO much (without actually being able to prove it... like saying what you did) actually takes away from what may otherwise be a reasonable argument.
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      05-22-2016, 03:38 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
There is a huge difference in the last 120 years and in the last 10.

Heck, there is a huge difference in the last 2 or 3 years from the last 10!

My point was simply that sometimes emphasizing something TOO much (without actually being able to prove it... like saying what you did) actually takes away from what may otherwise be a reasonable argument.
Point 1. Agreed.

Point 2. There is simply more information.

Point 3. You said most of mine were older. That was inaccurate.
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      05-22-2016, 03:40 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Point 1. Agreed.

Point 2. There is simply more information.

Point 3. You said most of mine were older. That was inaccurate.
Point 3... agreed... so we can both learn something from this
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      05-22-2016, 03:41 PM   #42
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Point 3... agreed... so we can both learn something from this
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      05-22-2016, 03:57 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
Sharks are killed by Japanese to make shark fin soup. You going to go there and change their culture? Maybe the Indians should come here to stop you eating steak.
Umm they already did. Its down by 80%.
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      05-22-2016, 03:59 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
I'm actually quoting my dad, a Ph.D. educator and scientist who is an expert on statistics on this issue. He says that there is not enough validated weather data to draw this type of conclusion (Global Warming, climate change, name du jour.)

I'll go with his opinion.

P.S. These are only a few of the most famous ones. I can mention 40 or 50 more if you'd like.
Well ill go with Stephen Hawking and the other 98% of the scientific community, no offense.
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