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View Poll Results: Who will you vote for come November?
Clinton 25 23.81%
Trump 61 58.10%
I will (seriously) abstain from voting 19 18.10%
Voters: 105. You may not vote on this poll

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      06-15-2016, 10:16 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
A national popular vote (vs. the Electoral College we have today) would mean NYC and LA would always, always choose our next president - which would be democrat. No thanks...
Well, if that's what the people vote for, then why not? Isn't that democracy?

At the end of the day, those are where the value is made in our country. The big states with big impact (NY, TX, CA) have minimal-to-no say in the presidential election: NY and CA always vote dem (so our vote doesn't matter), and TX always rep. So why not let the people choose? In all honesty, we're one country. Yes, we're a "union of states" but WE, the people, not the STATES (an intermediary) are impacted by our President; so why not let the people instead of the states select one that they want?

And no, it wouldn't always be a democrat. If the Republicans 1) catered to what the people want, and 2) put out a quality candidate (read: anybody but Trump, Cruz, or Rubio) then they'd have a chance, too.

I'm an independent because I don't want to "align to party lines". For instance, last cycle, I was indifferent between Obama and Romney... But even if I had wanted Romney, my vote would not have counted. See why I care?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
On anything other than military issues he leans farther left than most liberals. His "maverick" label was given to him by the NYT for his continual habit of going rogue on conservative positions, and thereby undermining his party. He advocates federally funded stem cell research using aborted fetal tissue, and has flip-flopped on abortion numerous times. He has advocated to close Guantanamo and transfer the prisoners to the US. He's against drilling in the ANWR. He supports the global warming theory. He's pro-illegal/amnesty. The GOP in his own state voted to censure him for his liberal voting record.

On top of all that, he's either not very bright, or a shameless panderer to special interests;

- co-authored McCain/Feingold campaign finance reform, which Obama promptly stuck up his ass to win the election,

- co-authored a global warming bill with Lieberman in 2003 (failed), that had the US making cap/trade payments to foreign governments. He re-introduced similar bills in 2004, 2005, and 2007,

- introduced gun control legislation,

- co-sponsored with Ted Kennedy and John Edwards pro-trial lawyer legislation, giving people broad rights to sue health insurers (failed).

And that's the tip of the iceberg. He will "compromise" with any democrat, but never members of his own party. No wonder democrats all love him - he's one of their own.

Edit: He's now 80 years old - was first elected to Congress in 1982 - term limits, anyone?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Oc View Post
That's funny, those are the reasons like him!
Haha same here! +1
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      06-15-2016, 10:23 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBean
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
A national popular vote (vs. the Electoral College we have today) would mean NYC and LA would always, always choose our next president - which would be democrat. No thanks...
Well, if that's what the people vote for, then why not? Isn't that democracy?

At the end of the day, those are where the value is made in our country. The big states with big impact (NY, TX, CA) have minimal-to-no say in the presidential election: NY and CA always vote dem (so our vote doesn't matter), and TX always rep. So why not let the people choose? In all honesty, we're one country. Yes, we're a "union of states" but WE, the people, not the STATES (an intermediary) are impacted by our President; so why not let the people instead of the states select one that they want?

And no, it wouldn't always be a democrat. If the Republicans 1) catered to what the people want, and 2) put out a quality candidate (read: anybody but Trump, Cruz, or Rubio) then they'd have a chance, too.

I'm an independent because I don't want to "align to party lines". For instance, last cycle, I was indifferent between Obama and Romney... But even if I had wanted Romney, my vote would not have counted. See why I care?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
On anything other than military issues he leans farther left than most liberals. His "maverick" label was given to him by the NYT for his continual habit of going rogue on conservative positions, and thereby undermining his party. He advocates federally funded stem cell research using aborted fetal tissue, and has flip-flopped on abortion numerous times. He has advocated to close Guantanamo and transfer the prisoners to the US. He's against drilling in the ANWR. He supports the global warming theory. He's pro-illegal/amnesty. The GOP in his own state voted to censure him for his liberal voting record.

On top of all that, he's either not very bright, or a shameless panderer to special interests;

- co-authored McCain/Feingold campaign finance reform, which Obama promptly stuck up his ass to win the election,

- co-authored a global warming bill with Lieberman in 2003 (failed), that had the US making cap/trade payments to foreign governments. He re-introduced similar bills in 2004, 2005, and 2007,

- introduced gun control legislation,

- co-sponsored with Ted Kennedy and John Edwards pro-trial lawyer legislation, giving people broad rights to sue health insurers (failed).

And that's the tip of the iceberg. He will "compromise" with any democrat, but never members of his own party. No wonder democrats all love him - he's one of their own.

Edit: He's now 80 years old - was first elected to Congress in 1982 - term limits, anyone?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Oc View Post
That's funny, those are the reasons like him!
Haha same here! +1
We don't have a democracy - never did. The Founding Fathers saw the errors of Democracy, and instead created a representative form of government.

Sorry, but you don't sound like an independent- you sound like a democrat.
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      06-15-2016, 11:13 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
We don't have a democracy - never did. The Founding Fathers saw the errors of Democracy, and instead created a representative form of government.

Sorry, but you don't sound like an independent- you sound like a democrat.
1. Just because I don't agree with your Republican views doesn't automatically make me a Democrat. We're discussing one point here, not an entire party's agenda. Sorry my friend, but this isn't a black and white world.

2. When the founding fathers created our country, it was a very different time - the world, technology, and problems we face were very different. At the time, the 'country' was a union of states. Each state was to be run independently, with minimal federal oversight - only checks and balances. This was good when we were living in a time when the biggest issue concerning them was monarchical oppression, and the furthest issue you considered was no further than a few miles down the road. Unfortunately, we're in an age now where, with globalization, we need to act as one country, not 50. That's why Europe unified. That's why China is successful in emerging from poverty. With that said, it means that the federal government is more important now than it was 200 years ago. Not for everything, but at least from a national policy standpoint (international trade, wars, etc...). Why I bring this up? It's because our president is more relevant than before, and so we, the people, should have a say.

3. What are the first three words of the constitution?
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      06-15-2016, 11:21 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBean
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
We don't have a democracy - never did. The Founding Fathers saw the errors of Democracy, and instead created a representative form of government.

Sorry, but you don't sound like an independent- you sound like a democrat.
1. Just because I don't agree with your Republican views doesn't automatically make me a Democrat. We're discussing one point here, not an entire party's agenda. Sorry my friend, but this isn't a black and white world.

2. When the founding fathers created our country, it was a very different time - the world, technology, and problems we face were very different. At the time, the 'country' was a union of states. Each state was to be run independently, with minimal federal oversight - only checks and balances. This was good when we were living in a time when the biggest issue concerning them was monarchical oppression, and the furthest issue you considered was no further than a few miles down the road. Unfortunately, we're in an age now where, with globalization, we need to act as one country, not 50. That's why Europe unified. That's why China is successful in emerging from poverty. With that said, it means that the federal government is more important now than it was 200 years ago. Not for everything, but at least from a national policy standpoint (international trade, wars, etc...). Why I bring this up? It's because our president is more relevant than before, and so we, the people, should have a say.

3. What are the first three words of the constitution?
I had trouble reading them, the room where they are kept is real dark....
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      06-15-2016, 11:30 AM   #71
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Trying to decide between abstain and Trump. Interested in seeing his running mate.
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      06-15-2016, 02:28 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBean
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
We don't have a democracy - never did. The Founding Fathers saw the errors of Democracy, and instead created a representative form of government.

Sorry, but you don't sound like an independent- you sound like a democrat.
1. Just because I don't agree with your Republican views doesn't automatically make me a Democrat. We're discussing one point here, not an entire party's agenda. Sorry my friend, but this isn't a black and white world.

2. When the founding fathers created our country, it was a very different time - the world, technology, and problems we face were very different. At the time, the 'country' was a union of states. Each state was to be run independently, with minimal federal oversight - only checks and balances. This was good when we were living in a time when the biggest issue concerning them was monarchical oppression, and the furthest issue you considered was no further than a few miles down the road. Unfortunately, we're in an age now where, with globalization, we need to act as one country, not 50. That's why Europe unified. That's why China is successful in emerging from poverty. With that said, it means that the federal government is more important now than it was 200 years ago. Not for everything, but at least from a national policy standpoint (international trade, wars, etc...). Why I bring this up? It's because our president is more relevant than before, and so we, the people, should have a say.

3. What are the first three words of the constitution?
1. Your presidential choices are very black and white. Feel free to write someone in, and then consider the consequences of doing so.

2. Europe is unified? It's a huge mess, and the strong countries are running for the Brexits... China is a communist system - not comparable at all. I'll take States Rights for $100, Alex...
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      06-15-2016, 04:03 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
1. Your presidential choices are very black and white. Feel free to write someone in, and then consider the consequences of doing so.

2. Europe is unified? It's a huge mess, and the strong countries are running for the Brexits... China is a communist system - not comparable at all. I'll take States Rights for $100, Alex...
1. Presidential choices are; political views are not. If you think they are, I'm concerned... one doesn't have to agree to everything a politician or political party says

2. The biggest issue with Europe, though, is that their local government and the EU governing body have no clear distinctions. This means that local policies are too different, and local forces don't align with EU policies. Thus, you have disconnects (look at monetary policy, culture, etc... in Germany vs. Greece). They only did the union half of the way there. The US are much better set up, and operate closer to how Europe SHOULD operate. BUT, as I mentioned, what's causing the issue in Europe is the lack of central leadership. I don't want this to devolve into a states rights issue. What I will say, though, is that we need a strong central government to effectively leverage the size, scale, and power of our country. Before you attempt to call me a democrat again, I'm not saying we need 'big government' - you can have 'big government' at a state level as well. What I'm saying is that we have so much inefficiency in our system by having a double government. THUS, we should keep things that make sense centralized, do them once, and get it over with. THUS, we should have more individual say in our president.

As for China, yes, it's a communist state. But give them credit where it's due: by having ONE party that doesn't disagree with itself, for better or for worse, they are able to pick a direction and go there. They don't try to undo what the previous administration spent four-eight years doing, and they don't have idiotic stalemates (oh, you can't nominate a supreme court justice in the last 75% of your term... yeah - that's effective). So, while there are a lot of issues I have with how China runs things (namely lack of freedom of information and transparency), I also give them a lot of credit for what they've done in the last 30 years and what they're able to do by not fighting internally.

And your answer to #3? I'll help you. It says "We the people", not "we the states"...
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      06-16-2016, 12:24 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBean
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
1. Your presidential choices are very black and white. Feel free to write someone in, and then consider the consequences of doing so.

2. Europe is unified? It's a huge mess, and the strong countries are running for the Brexits... China is a communist system - not comparable at all. I'll take States Rights for $100, Alex...
1. Presidential choices are; political views are not. If you think they are, I'm concerned... one doesn't have to agree to everything a politician or political party says

2. The biggest issue with Europe, though, is that their local government and the EU governing body have no clear distinctions. This means that local policies are too different, and local forces don't align with EU policies. Thus, you have disconnects (look at monetary policy, culture, etc... in Germany vs. Greece). They only did the union half of the way there. The US are much better set up, and operate closer to how Europe SHOULD operate. BUT, as I mentioned, what's causing the issue in Europe is the lack of central leadership. I don't want this to devolve into a states rights issue. What I will say, though, is that we need a strong central government to effectively leverage the size, scale, and power of our country. Before you attempt to call me a democrat again, I'm not saying we need 'big government' - you can have 'big government' at a state level as well. What I'm saying is that we have so much inefficiency in our system by having a double government. THUS, we should keep things that make sense centralized, do them once, and get it over with. THUS, we should have more individual say in our president.

As for China, yes, it's a communist state. But give them credit where it's due: by having ONE party that doesn't disagree with itself, for better or for worse, they are able to pick a direction and go there. They don't try to undo what the previous administration spent four-eight years doing, and they don't have idiotic stalemates (oh, you can't nominate a supreme court justice in the last 75% of your term... yeah - that's effective). So, while there are a lot of issues I have with how China runs things (namely lack of freedom of information and transparency), I also give them a lot of credit for what they've done in the last 30 years and what they're able to do by not fighting internally.

And your answer to #3? I'll help you. It says "We the people", not "we the states"...
You're probably right; removing the duplicity of state and federal governments would be more efficient, and would accelerate us on a course to wherever we are headed.

But I think that would be an awful thing. It never works out; no one (or small group) on earth can handle that much power. That's how you end up with North Korea, China, Cambodia, Iran, Cuba, etc.

Our three-part government has its inefficiencies and challenges, but is vastly better than the alternatives (see the above). We don't need a monarchy, even if we get to vote for a monarch.

The federal government was established to provide what state governments couldn't - primarily defense. It's now a bloated monster that consumes inordinate resources from all of us. The path we are on (and that I sense you advocate) would go further to remove what little control remains.
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