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      11-15-2016, 11:58 AM   #45
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Why do we have a Federal grants office within Housing, Transportation, Education, Health, (more?) Each of those have some unique requirements in terms of monitoring, but we can surely find plenty of government employees who are smart enough to apply the rules of each, and streamline the federal government.
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      11-15-2016, 12:12 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Why do we have a Federal grants office within Housing, Transportation, Education, Health, (more?) Each of those have some unique requirements in terms of monitoring, but we can surely find plenty of government employees who are smart enough to apply the rules of each, and streamline the federal government.
I'm all ears.

You have one party who doesn't want the government to work, so they will cut budgets and make sure they don't have the tools to do their jobs properly (think IRS)

And have another party that's a little too willing to just bandaid the problem without actually fixing it.
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      11-15-2016, 12:38 PM   #47
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To me it's all about accountability. If we're going to be held accountable (by the media, by other countries, by our own citizens) as a country as a whole for the state of our education, then we need a Department of Education. By hey, if we want to create a situation where states are fingerpointing one another for the state of education in the US (e.g. NY saying "Don't blame us; blame Alabama"), then by all means, make education a state-only mandate.

So the question is: Are we in this education thing together or not? Do the "have" states have an obligation to assist the "have not" states on the theory that every state benefits when every student has a better education?

Finally, for some of you saying that the education disparity is wide despite the existence of federal education funding, I posit that the education disparity could have possibly been wider if such funding did not exist. Of course, I don't know for sure; I'm sure research has been done either confirming or denying this.

Edit: Just for the record, I tend to lean toward the "we're in this education thing together" side. I think our country's low education is a sore point in the eyes of the rest of the world. The rest of the world doesn't care that NY's or MA's education is so strong. They only evaluate the US as a whole.

Last edited by schoy; 11-15-2016 at 12:45 PM..
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      11-15-2016, 12:38 PM   #48
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If you eliminate the department of education, you eliminate any consistency of education across the country. All a sudden, you'll have rich areas with great schools and teachers and poorer areas will have nothing. It's already like that. By eliminating federal funding, you'll make the disparity worse. The poor get poorer, the rich get richer.

Not to mention, you'll have states and people who will want to teach their own stuff such as religion in schools... which is and should be separate from academic education.

I really see the answer as more funding for education and things like teacher's salaries. We need to retain and attract more quality teachers. Paying them peanuts and throwing them into the bull pen to fight for themselves is not the way to attract talent.
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      11-15-2016, 12:48 PM   #49
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Guys, the conservative states already take in more than they pay out, like the bottom feeding parasites that they are. The cut state revenue to the bone and then have all the liberal states (which they demonize for higher taxes) cover their budget.

http://taxfoundation.org/blog/which-...-federal-aid-0

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...leaning-state/
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      11-15-2016, 01:15 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
Guys, the conservative states already take in more than they pay out, like the bottom feeding parasites that they are. The cut state revenue to the bone and then have all the liberal states (which they demonize for higher taxes) cover their budget.

http://taxfoundation.org/blog/which-...-federal-aid-0

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...leaning-state/
What do you think the military budget is listed under? Which states tend to have most of our military bases ?

Also farms tend to get government subsidies. And we all need and like to eat right?

Last edited by Delta0311; 11-15-2016 at 01:23 PM..
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      11-15-2016, 01:34 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Delta0311 View Post
What do you think the military budget is listed under? Which states tend to have most of our military bases ?

Also farms tend to get government subsidies. And we all need and like to eat right?
I'm not following.
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      11-15-2016, 01:43 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
But the agency has existed for decades, and the problem still exists just like it did in the beginning. That's not success.
Sounds like an issue of too much state control.
What? That doesn't make sense
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      11-15-2016, 01:46 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
Guys, the conservative states already take in more than they pay out, like the bottom feeding parasites that they are. The cut state revenue to the bone and then have all the liberal states (which they demonize for higher taxes) cover their budget.

http://taxfoundation.org/blog/which-...-federal-aid-0

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...leaning-state/
In comparisons like this they often look at the amount of money the Feds "give" to a state in total, and conservative states look like they consume more federal dollars. In reality, it's a lot of defense spending and agricultural subsidies that the Feds pay within conservative states - if you backout that stuff, welfare spending, etc. is less in conservative states.
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      11-15-2016, 01:46 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catcher22 View Post
You can't just get rid of entire Agencies, and it's really narrow minded to think it's okay to do so. These Agencies are entrenched in society and good Americans and businesses rely on important programs within each agency. "Getting rid of them" would do a lot more harm than just saving something like .01% of the entire federal budget.


This is exactly what I was getting ready to say. The reason these agencies and departments exist is to oversee necessary functions of our society. Just dissolving these agencies because one doesn't understand or approve of them would be reckless and ignorant. However, one could make the same argument for letting these agencies run unfettered. I would advocate for reviewing each to determine their essential functionality, remove scope creep, and restructure them if necessary. That seems logical to me, but maybe my logic is flawed...
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      11-15-2016, 01:51 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonCSU View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by catcher22 View Post
You can't just get rid of entire Agencies, and it's really narrow minded to think it's okay to do so. These Agencies are entrenched in society and good Americans and businesses rely on important programs within each agency. "Getting rid of them" would do a lot more harm than just saving something like .01% of the entire federal budget.


This is exactly what I was getting ready to say. The reason these agencies and departments exist is to oversee necessary functions of our society. Just dissolving these agencies because one doesn't understand or approve of them would be reckless and ignorant. However, one could make the same argument for letting these agencies run unfettered. I would advocate for reviewing each to determine their essential functionality, remove scope creep, and restructure them if necessary. That seems logical to me, but maybe my logic is flawed...
I agree - there is likely something each of these agencies do that is beneficial, but it shouldn't be a jobs program. As I understand the Department of Energy, Carter set them up in the mid 1970's during the OPEC embargo. The agency has existed since then, yet the government has never had an official energy policy. The nuclear agencies got lumped in, but we had nukes long before the 1970s, so what's really needed? That's the question to answer.
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      11-15-2016, 01:51 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
I'm not following.
Meaning they are budgeted from FEDERAL dollars.
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      11-15-2016, 01:54 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
One of my friends was a high school teacher. She changed professions because she couldn't deal with being a baby sitter and a surrogate parent for her students. Some of the stories she tells me just reinforces how our future (kids) is in danger because of piss poor parenting. My friend loved being a teacher and making a difference but just got tired of dealing with the BS of part time/absentee parents and unrulely out of control kids.

This doesn't surprise me. I hear similar things from my teacher friends.
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      11-15-2016, 02:08 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
In comparisons like this they often look at the amount of money the Feds "give" to a state in total, and conservative states look like they consume more federal dollars. In reality, it's a lot of defense spending and agricultural subsidies that the Feds pay within conservative states - if you backout that stuff, welfare spending, etc. is less in conservative states.
Subsidies are welfare payments, but I'd like you to source those statistics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
I agree - there is likely something each of these agencies do that is beneficial, but it shouldn't be a jobs program.
LOL!
SOMETHING?
What, it should be run on a shoestring budget as a volunteer service?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
As I understand the Department of Energy, Carter set them up in the mid 1970's during the OPEC embargo. The agency has existed since then, yet the government has never had an official energy policy. The nuclear agencies got lumped in, but we had nukes long before the 1970s, so what's really needed? That's the question to answer.
That's a fair assement, but they aren't a huge driver of the budget at ALL:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ment_of_Energy
[quote]As part of the $789 billion economic stimulus package in the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009, Congress provided Energy with an additional $38.3 billion for fiscal years 2009 and 2010, adding about 75 percent to Energy's annual budgets. Most of the stimulus spending was in the form of grants and contracts./quote]
Looks like they are mostly focused on research, not so much policy directly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta0311 View Post
Meaning they are budgeted from FEDERAL dollars.
What about it? Soldiers work and get paid, and as far as I know, pay taxes as well.
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      11-15-2016, 02:09 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
Guys, the conservative states already take in more than they pay out, like the bottom feeding parasites that they are. The cut state revenue to the bone and then have all the liberal states (which they demonize for higher taxes) cover their budget.

http://taxfoundation.org/blog/which-...-federal-aid-0

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...leaning-state/
"...like the bottom-feeding parasites they are."

Not sure how you can label an entire state a "bottom-feeding parasite?" You might want to tone down your rhetoric a bit.

http://www.americanthinker.com/artic...e_welfare.html

And it's debatable how those statistics are interpreted.
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      11-15-2016, 02:11 PM   #60
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[QUOTE=TheAxiom;20855224]Subsidies are welfare payments, but I'd like you to source those statistics.


LOL!
SOMETHING?
What, it should be run on a shoestring budget as a volunteer service?



That's a fair assement, but they aren't a huge driver of the budget at ALL:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...ment_of_Energy
Quote:
As part of the $789 billion economic stimulus package in the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009, Congress provided Energy with an additional $38.3 billion for fiscal years 2009 and 2010, adding about 75 percent to Energy's annual budgets. Most of the stimulus spending was in the form of grants and contracts./quote]
Looks like they are mostly focused on research, not so much policy directly.


What about it? Soldiers work and get paid, and as far as I know, pay taxes as well.
Yes and that money comes from the FEDERAL budget. So when you look at your maps it looks like all handout money, when in fact a massive chuck for "federal aid" is simply cash going towards farm subsidies and military spending.
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      11-15-2016, 02:14 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
"...like the bottom-feeding parasites they are."

Not sure how you can label an entire state a "bottom-feeding parasite?" You might want to tone down your rhetoric a bit.

http://www.americanthinker.com/artic...e_welfare.html

And it's debatable how those statistics are interpreted.
Sure, the part of the stated that continually reelects the jackasses who are running the state to the ground, are bottom feeders.

And that state goes back over 30 years (article dated in 2013) to help him drive home a narrative that "this is because they elected democrats in the 80s) What matters is these states are feeding off the hardworking states and not providing for their constituents, and they happen to be states that have categorized as RED.
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      11-15-2016, 02:15 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta0311 View Post
Yes and that money comes from the FEDERAL budget. So when you look at your maps it looks like all handout money, when in fact a massive chuck for "federal aid" is simply cash going towards farm subsidies and military spending.
Welfare.
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      11-15-2016, 02:21 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
Welfare.
We have a ton of federal subsidies that support corn. A crop that we have way too much off that we find ways to make it into useful stuff. We have so much of it that they try to find things to do with it like corn syrup in place of sugar, glue, and ethanol for gasoline use.

Instead of growing a ton of corn and having the govt subsidies pay for the excess, just grow what we need and grow something else more useful. With subsidies, farmers take advantage of the system by growing a ton of stuff that is not needed and have the govt pay for it.
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      11-15-2016, 03:01 PM   #64
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Dept of Energy definitely needs to go or be overhauled and the FDA definitely needs to be overhauled, every department that is there with the sole purpose of enriching the government and keeping people slaves needs to be overhauled.
Medication can't enter the country so we can over inflate American made prices.

Clean or free energy inventions are stomped and shut down by the DOE.

People cant collect rainwater or go grid free or the government will throw them in prison...
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      11-15-2016, 03:04 PM   #65
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Dept of Energy definitely needs to go or be overhauled and the FDA definitely needs to be overhauled, every department that is there with the sole purpose of enriching the government and keeping people slaves needs to be overhauled.
Medication can't enter the country so we can over inflate American made prices.

Clean or free energy inventions are stomped and shut down by the DOE.

People cant collect rainwater or go grid free or the government will throw them in prison...

Uhh, that's not how it works. That's not how any of this works.
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      11-15-2016, 03:17 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GabeS View Post
Dept of Energy definitely needs to go or be overhauled and the FDA definitely needs to be overhauled, every department that is there with the sole purpose of enriching the government and keeping people slaves needs to be overhauled.
Medication can't enter the country so we can over inflate American made prices.

Clean or free energy inventions are stomped and shut down by the DOE.

People cant collect rainwater or go grid free or the government will throw them in prison...
The FDA is definitely needed. Who else will make sure the food we eat won't kill us? And legal drugs coming into the country meet American standards?

As someone who has worked in both the food and drug (pharmaceutical) industry, the FDA is way underfunded for the work they do.

If you want faster processes, you need more people or more efficient systems. But some things can't be avoided, food/drug shipments have to be inspected. Restaurants, food preparation facilities have to be inspected by people and make sure they're safe. New drugs are evaluated for safety and effectiveness before they get approval to be sold. It's a major safety issue to not have these systems in place.

When there's a E. Coli outbreak, the FDA shuts down the restaurant and traces the food back to the origin. Without record keeping, data systems and people doing inspections, none of these controls would exist.
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