[MPerformance211]

GM has sold more Camaros since 1967.

In 2014 BMW sold more 4 series than Chevy sold Camaros. Fact.

[08njSTEP]

The visibility issue is real. When the camaro first reappeared one came into the shop I worked at. I was kinda excited to see it as I've been a Chevy man for a long time. I sat in it and could not believe how blind it was. My father was real keen on getting one. He can afford any car he wants and had a '67 RS SS brand new. He loves the corvette too and has 5. I told him to sit in one and drive it before he got his mind set. So he loves Chevy and loves sports cars. He rented one for a weekend. Never talked about buying one again. Poor ergonomics lost Chevy a sale. Anyone who says it's not an issue hasn't sat in one.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by MPerformance211

I didn't start the thread. If you had any reading comprehension ability, you'd see the sports car analogy came in during the discussion about visibility. I'll compare the M4 all day long with the Camaro if you so desire. Handling, feel, looks, braking, build quality, etc. all fall the way of the M4. And it should given the difference in price points. I am fortunate enough to not have to worry about settling for a Camaro or Mustang over the likes of an M4, C63, RS5, etc.

I can't stand the styling of GM cars.....I wouldn't care if they had a GT type car that competed with the M4 that ran 0-100 in 5 seconds or the Ring in 7:00 flat....I simply wouldn't have any interest in buying their product. It's chincy and gaudy looking.

Sorry I stopped reading after the GTO comment

your GTO or my M4..........hmmm, which is better

Ooh, you have a red stripe!

[08njSTEP]

I worked at BMWNA in the body shop in '08 and at that time BMW used only new metal while MB was recycling its own cars. Since then BMW has followed. This is fact. I can post diagrams that show the different types of steel and aluminium and where they're located in the structure. Trip steel, hsla steel, hs boron steel, etc. There are approximately 7 different types. And the GRAV aluminium structure is amazing engineering. And I have lived in NH 1 year.

[08njSTEP]

As for rust. BMW plant in Roslyn S. Africa used a conveyor belt to dip raw cars in a solution to prevent rust. They found air bubbles forming under roof and package tray. So they changed the line so the cars spun 360° in solution. No air bubbles and used less solution. BMW cares about the safety of its cars and that deminishes with rust. GM wants you in a new car before you've finished paying for the last one.
.

[eric_spt]

Originally Posted by 08njSTEP

As for rust. BMW plant in Roslyn S. Africa used a conveyor belt to dip raw cars in a solution to prevent rust. They found air bubbles forming under roof and package tray. So they changed the line so the cars spun 360° in solution. No air bubbles and used less solution. BMW cares about the safety of its cars and that deminishes with rust. GM wants you in a new car before you've finished paying for the last one.
.

Walk into any BMW dealer and tell them you want to buy a BMW and turn it in at 55,000 miles for a new one.

Ask them what its worth.

BMW, Mercedes, etc none of them want to lease a car past 50K. I looked at high mileage leases, 20K per year and they all told me it was insane.

Not a single dealer wanted a car back with more than 45K on it because values drop 20 percent once you pass the 50k mark.

[Vigilante375]

Originally Posted by MPerformance211

I didn't start the thread. If you had any reading comprehension ability, you'd see the sports car analogy came in during the discussion about visibility. I'll compare the M4 all day long with the Camaro if you so desire. Handling, feel, looks, braking, build quality, etc. all fall the way of the M4. And it should given the difference in price points. I am fortunate enough to not have to worry about settling for a Camaro or Mustang over the likes of an M4, C63, RS5, etc.

I can't stand the styling of GM cars.....I wouldn't care if they had a GT type car that competed with the M4 that ran 0-100 in 5 seconds or the Ring in 7:00 flat....I simply wouldn't have any interest in buying their product. It's chincy and gaudy looking.

Sorry I stopped reading after the GTO comment

your GTO or my M4..........hmmm, which is better

Obviously you're not a car guy or car enthusiast. You're a badge holder. If you can't read well either, then you don't understand how a 2016 camaro SS handles the road. The M4 will be fighting to keep it off its ass or struggling to keep up with it on a road course. Even last year's Z 28 or ZL1 will give a new M4 a run for its money.

I'm fortunate enough to not have to settle for a Camaro or Mustang either but why pay more when there's something that catches my eye better at a lower price? You badge holder, fan boi's give me a good laugh all the time.

By the way, if you're continuing on with the discussion of sports car vs luxury car then it's like you started it.

Go ahead and laugh at the old Goats interior but until you've say in it then you have no idea how that 2006 feels compared to a M4. Which by the way, you're M4 interior is just like my 1 series interior or a 3 series or 5 series or 7 series, just a bit different layout. Sometimes the simple things are all that people want and that's what the GTO had for me.

[MPerformance211]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

Ooh, you have a red stripe!

Yep, that's all........... Well, and carbon fiber and 10 grades higher leather (not pleather) to include a leather dash. The BMW console and center stack did not come out of the Fisher Price catalogue and it isn't held on with double sided tape. The stereo isn't stamped with "Kraco" on it. And the tons of other things that you wouldn't understand. But you keep thinking there is something special about a Pontiac GTO. Speaking of Pontiac...where are they these days? Oh, that's right even GM realized what a shit brand that was and folded up shop on it. Such a shame....well, not really. Just Less GM shit to have to maneuver around.

[MPerformance211]

Originally Posted by Vigilante375

Obviously you're not a car guy or car enthusiast. You're a badge holder. If you can't read well either, then you don't understand how a 2016 camaro SS handles the road. The M4 will be fighting to keep it off its ass or struggling to keep up with it on a road course. Even last year's Z 28 or ZL1 will give a new M4 a run for its money.

I'm fortunate enough to not have to settle for a Camaro or Mustang either but why pay more when there's something that catches my eye better at a lower price? You badge holder, fan boi's give me a good laugh all the time.

By the way, if you're continuing on with the discussion of sports car vs luxury car then it's like you started it.

Go ahead and laugh at the old Goats interior but until you've say in it then you have no idea how that 2006 feels compared to a M4. Which by the way, you're M4 interior is just like my 1 series interior or a 3 series or 5 series or 7 series, just a bit different layout. Sometimes the simple things are all that people want and that's what the GTO had for me.

Nope, not a car enthusiast or car guy at all. Only have owned countless Porsches, BMW M cars, Audis, GTR and Vettes. Fuck no, not a car enthusiast at all Get real man. Badge holder?....yep; badge holder of quality. I will gladly pay more for better quality. I've had my share of GM junk and will never buy it again. Look at my signature line and see what I have owned in the past and tell me why in the hell I would settle for inferior shit like the Camaro. The stuff has awful styling and build quality sucks ass compared to what I am looking for. Seriously, they still put fucking chrome wheels on their 2016 cars and trucks. Are you fucking kidding me?......chrome!!!

Why would someone with the means settle for that shit when they could easily afford a much better quality car like an M3/M4, AMG Benz, Audi RS, Lexus F, et al? Has nothing to do with saving money or the cars being equal. They aren't even close to being equal. Sure they are close in performance but there is so much more to a car than its speed/performance. If it is going to be a 100% dedicated track car, there are much better alternatives than a heavy ass boat like a Camaro.

Go ahead and post up pictures of your 1 series and compare it to my M4 or better yet a 6 series M or a 7 series. They aren't even in the same hemisphere sport.

[Vigilante375]

Originally Posted by MPerformance211

Nope, not a car enthusiast or car guy at all. Only have owned countless Porsches, BMW M cars, Audis, GTR and Vettes. Fuck no, not a car enthusiast at all Get real man. Badge holder?....yep; badge holder of quality. I will gladly pay more for better quality. I've had my share of GM junk and will never buy it again. Look at my signature line and see what I have owned in the past and tell me why in the hell I would settle for inferior shit like the Camaro. The stuff has awful styling and build quality sucks ass compared to what I am looking for. Seriously, they still put fucking chrome wheels on their 2016 cars and trucks. Are you fucking kidding me?......chrome!!!

Why would someone with the means settle for that shit when they could easily afford a much better quality car like an M3/M4, AMG Benz, Audi RS, Lexus F, et al? Has nothing to do with saving money or the cars being equal. They aren't even close to being equal. Sure they are close in performance but there is so much more to a car than its speed/performance. If it is going to be a 100% dedicated track car, there are much better alternatives than a heavy ass boat like a Camaro.

Go ahead and post up pictures of your 1 series and compare it to my M4 or better yet a 6 series M or a 7 series. They aren't even in the same hemisphere sport.

Sport? Ok, son, go enjoy all your badges. While us car people enjoy cars for what they are not for sitting in your garage or in a parking so you can tell people how great of a car it is.

[CirrusSR22]

Originally Posted by MPerformance211

I didn't start the thread. If you had any reading comprehension ability, you'd see the sports car analogy came in during the discussion about visibility. I'll compare the M4 all day long with the Camaro if you so desire. Handling, feel, looks, braking, build quality, etc. all fall the way of the M4. And it should given the difference in price points. I am fortunate enough to not have to worry about settling for a Camaro or Mustang over the likes of an M4, C63, RS5, etc.

I can't stand the styling of GM cars.....I wouldn't care if they had a GT type car that competed with the M4 that ran 0-100 in 5 seconds or the Ring in 7:00 flat....I simply wouldn't have any interest in buying their product. It's chincy and gaudy looking.

Sorry I stopped reading after the GTO comment

your GTO or my M4..........hmmm, which is better

Speaking of chincy and gaudy. I saw this gem at my local BMW dealer a few weeks ago. Quite possibly the gaudiest new car I've ever seen.

"M Performance" and colored stickers all over it. The wheels looked like something from a JC Whitney catalog or $79 eBay Junkers. All factory BMW accessories and parts too.



And BMW still sells chrome wheels. It's listed right in their 2015 accessories catalogs. Style 311 for example.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by MPerformance211

GM has sold more Camaros since 1967.

In 2014 BMW sold more 4 series than Chevy sold Camaros. Fact.

Well if you are counting BMW world-wide sales of the 4-Series vs. GM's North American sales of the Camaro (because that's the only place it is sold) then sure, probably true. But let's do apples to apples:

Sales data from Good Car Bad Car website. USA sales of both vehicles 2015 Year-to-Date

Camaro ---- 72,136 units
4 Series --- 40,481 units

[MPerformance211]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Well if you are counting BMW world-wide sales of the 4-Series vs. GM's North American sales of the Camaro (because that's the only place it is sold) then sure, probably true. But let's do apples to apples:

Sales data from Good Car Bad Car website. USA sales of both vehicles 2015 Year-to-Date

Camaro ---- 72,136 units
4 Series --- 40,481 units

Apples to apples is how many model specific cars in a given year does a manufacturer produce and sell. After all, there are other places in the world besides the USA (none are any better but I digress). That is an apples to apples comparison. Fact is that BMW (a manufacturer) sells 34.8% more 4 series than GM (a manufacturer) produces and sells Camaro.

Notice you didn't answer my other question so I'll ask it again. What car does GM sell in Europe that is the equivalent of the Camaro? I'll help you out. There is none.

[RM7]

Wait, a car with a long nose, raked windshield and low roofline doesn't have perfect visibility? Wow, this is totally unsurprising! In the camaro, you get used to it, but heck, even in the 4 the front where the window meets the hood is high and you have much higher sills than in the past. It's a similar effect, although not as dramatic. Maybe this is short guys slamming the camaro seats down or something? It seems to me that some of you should have bought an old 2002 instead of your 4 series. Heck, getting in the 4 is similar to the camaro, due to the doors. About the only thing I had to do differently with the camaro was not roll up on parking curbs till my wheel hit it, because it'd rip off the splitter and air damn. I don't do this with the 4, but it's not as dramatic. This is the case on many modern cars (even suv and crossovers!), if for nothing else, for better fuel efficiency, but some older folks are very fond of using this technique. With the limited front/down visibility, you have to sometimes stop a few feet short, get out and look to see if you want to get it closer, but I'd usually just leave it a few feet short. Otherwise, you get to know the dimensions on the road just fine. And yes, there are sacrifices for rooflines like the camaro, Lamborghini, lotus esprit, and others. On the plus side, I liked the fact that I didn't feel like I was "on parade" and everyone could easily look in my car at me while I was driving, but again the 2002 is probably a better platform for some.

[MPerformance211]

Originally Posted by CirrusSR22

Speaking of chincy and gaudy. I saw this gem at my local BMW dealer a few weeks ago. Quite possibly the gaudiest new car I've ever seen.

"M Performance" and colored stickers all over it. The wheels looked like something from a JC Whitney catalog or $79 eBay Junkers. All factory BMW accessories and parts too.



And BMW still sells chrome wheels. It's listed right in their 2015 accessories catalogs. Style 311 for example.

That is indeed gaudy and something I'd never buy. Furthermore, the new wheels on the M4GTS (which kind of resemble the god awful wheels on the car pictured here a little bit) are hideous as well. I have commented about them a number of different times on this forum.

You are not communicating with a BMW Kool Aid drinker. I don't worship the badge of any manufacturer. I just like good quality stuff and am willing to pay for it. GM does not fall in that category FOR ME. For others I'm sure it does.

As far as chrome wheels go. I challenge you to find ONE new BMW car sitting on a BMW dealer lot ordered with chrome wheels. Conversely, I can go to any Chevy dealership and find at least one (most likely many more) brand new C7 Corvette or C7 Z06 Vette ordered by the dealership with chrome wheels. Better yet, go on over to CorvetteForum and see the number of guys that ordered their brand new Vette with chrome wheels.

GM takes the cake with gaudy. They still think it's the "in thing" to put window louvres on a 2015 vehicle.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by MPerformance211

Apples to apples is how many model specific cars in a given year does a manufacturer produce and sell. After all, there are other places in the world besides the USA (none are any better but I digress). That is an apples to apples comparison. Fact is that BMW (a manufacturer) sells 34.8% more 4 series than GM (a manufacturer) produces and sells Camaro.

Notice you didn't answer my other question so I'll ask it again. What car does GM sell in Europe that is the equivalent of the Camaro? I'll help you out. There is none.

And world wide GM is the 3 largest auto producer behind Volkswagen, and Toyota. BMW is 13th. So obviously GM produces and sells better cars than BMW for the mere fact that BMW is 10 places behind GM in size. I didn't answer your question about what the equivalent car is in GM's Europe division because it is a pointless question. Due to the tax structures in most European countries, small fuel efficient, small displacement vehicles are the prominent type of car developed and sold for the European market, not large engine displacement coupes such as the Camaro. The Camaro is not sold in Europe not because it sucks, but because the European automotive market, dictated a mostly by tax policy (including the high taxes placed on fuel), do not lend to a large enough market share to develop for the Camaro to support the sales logistics of exporting the car to Europe. Those logistics are things such as maintaining part inventories, training of technician staff to service and repair the vehicle, and the need to convert the chassis to right-hand drive for the countries that have right-hand drive vehicles.

If you can't accept the concept that not all vehicles of all manufacturers are sold world wide then that's your issue. You can keep trying to force your point that when the Camaro is compared to the 4-Series on a world wide sales basis the 4-Series sell in higher volume as pointing to your contention that the Camaro is a POS, but it is an argument you've invented to make an invalid point. But , keep going on with it, I really do enjoy pointing out the foolishness of your argument.

[MPerformance211]

Originally Posted by Vigilante375

Sport? Ok, son, go enjoy all your badges. While us car people enjoy cars for what they are not for sitting in your garage or in a parking so you can tell people how great of a car it is.

Yeah sure. Mine just sits in the garage.....well except for those times when I am running them at VIR and Summit Point with my buddies.

[MPerformance211]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

And world wide GM is the 3 largest auto producer behind Volkswagen, and Toyota. BMW is 13th. So obviously GM produces and sells better cars than BMW for the mere fact that BMW is 10 places behind GM in size. I didn't answer your question about what the equivalent car is in GM's Europe division because it is a pointless question. Due to the tax structures in most European countries, small fuel efficient, small displacement vehicles are the prominent type of car developed and sold for the European market, not large engine displacement coupes such as the Camaro. The Camaro is not sold in Europe not because it sucks, but because the European automotive market, dictated a mostly by tax policy (including the high taxes placed on fuel), do not lend to a large enough market share to develop for the Camaro to support the sales logistics of exporting the car to Europe. Those logistics are things such as maintaining part inventories, training of technician staff to service and repair the vehicle, and the need to convert the chassis to right-hand drive for the countries that have right-hand drive vehicles.

If you can't accept the concept that not all vehicles of all manufacturers are sold world wide then that's your issue. You can keep trying to force your point that when the Camaro is compared to the 4-Series on a world wide sales basis the 4-Series sell in higher volume as pointing to your contention that the Camaro is a POS, but it is an argument you've invented to make an invalid point. But , keep going on with it, I really do enjoy pointing out the foolishness of your argument.

The question is not about who sells more cars. The comment was made that Chevy sells more Camaros than BMW sells 4 series. That is a false statement. BMW sells more 4 series cars than Chevy sells Camaros. Please try to keep up. End of story

You didn't answer my question because you simply made a ridiculous comment that you pulled out of your ass (seems to be a recurring thing for you) with no factual basis whatsoever.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by MPerformance211

Yeah sure. Mine just sits in the garage.....well except for those times when I am running them at VIR and Summit Point with my buddies.

I wonder if Ford sells that F-350 dually in Europe.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by MPerformance211

The question is not about who sells more cars. The comment was made that Chevy sells more Camaros than BMW sells 4 series. That is a false statement. BMW sells more 4 series cars than Chevy sells Camaros. Please try to keep up. End of story

You didn't answer my question because you simply made a ridiculous comment that you pulled out of your ass (seems to be a recurring thing for you) with no factual basis whatsoever.

Now I'm really laughing at you. Seriously, it's cool you run your M at VIR and Summit Point. But you really don't understand the automotive industry. I've posted sales data twice now. My statement about the European marketplace is spot on, not pulled out of anyone's ass. All manufacturers sell specific cars in specific markets to make a profit. Not all cars are profitable in all markets. GM sells specific cars in the European market that are profitable. It will be interesting to see how well the Mustang sells in Europe now that Ford has decided to market it there. The Mustang outsells the Camaro in the USA, so extrapolating that their is some market in Europe for American "pony" cars, we can reasonably assume that the Camaro would sell in those same markets that the Mustang may sell in. I know this is probably all over your head, but I'll keep track of European Mustang sales just out of curiosity sakes. I'll give it a full year.

I'm going to go finish my clutch now. I'll be back later to discuss more foolishness.

[MPerformance211]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Now I'm really laughing at you. Seriously, it's cool you run your M at VIR and Summit Point. But you really don't understand the automotive industry. I've posted sales data twice now. My statement about the European marketplace is spot on, not pulled out of anyone's ass.

Man, you are thick. The question is very simple.

How many Chevy Camaro's were sold in 2104 ---- 89,177

How many BMW 4 series were sold in 2014 ------ 119,580

I was no math major but I am pretty sure 119,580 is more than 89,177 by about 34.1%. This had nothing to do with who sells what car in what country. We are talking about are there more Camaros sold or are there more 4 series sold. The answer is very clear. Not my fault that GM doesn't sell the Camaro outside of NA. They know why.........because it is not appealing to anyone other than US. Look at the sale in Canada. They are abysmal.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by MPerformance211

Man, you are thick. The question is very simple.

How many Chevy Camaro's were sold in 2104 ---- 89,177

How many BMW 4 series were sold in 2014 ------ 119,580

I was no math major but I am pretty sure 119,580 is more than 89,177 by about 34.1%. This had nothing to do with who sells what car in what country. We are talking about are there more Camaros sold or are there more 4 series sold. The answer is very clear. Not my fault that GM doesn't sell the Camaro outside of NA. They know why.........because it is not appealing to anyone other than US. Look at the sale in Canada. They are abysmal.

So... BMW can only sell 119,000 4-Series worldwide and GM sells just 20,000 less Camaros because it is sold in a limited market of just North America and you think that proves your point? I'd insert a insult here, but It's a new year and all...