[Davy Jordi]

yeah, that's what i'm doing -- not logging. pain in the ass.

just drive the car and have fun.

[xcelir8bmw]

Sure an optimal MAP doesn't use OBDII for sensors?

[Davy Jordi]

i dunno - that's a question for BMS or someone more knowledgeable than i am on here. all i know is that i'm satisfied with the product.

[rice_rocket88]

Wowsers.. so I have some interesting news.

Okay I was trying to take my logs of partial-full throttle with the map2 and custom map6 and did some experimenting. First of all, on a nice steady acceleration onto the highway without punching it, I managed to hit boost limit on map2 and have it bounce into failsafe mode.. yes this is when the boost hits too high, somewhere around 30 from what I gather.

The new trick is.. if you unplug that CANBUS OBDII sensor you can run it all the way up with no failsafe! I am looking at my logs right now on the first run and at 75% throttle I managed to get it to spike to 33.1 psi! Fuel trims and AFR remain maxed and at 15. Now I'm assuming that the new car has a sensitive enough O2 sensor (like wideband) that the reading of 15 is true and it still has plenty of FUEL to go. So.... the only concern is: Can the plastic intercooler pipes handle 33 psi? Certainly other older N54/N55 cars don't like that much boost and start popping off pipes/cracking it. This car is obviously designed to start off at let's round it up to 23psi. On the older builds, they weren't meant to go up to 23psi. So.. I'm sure it's over engineered to take more boost.. but at what limit does it stop??

I'm not out for glory drags or HP numbers, just daily driving my car. But I obviously don't ever want it to pop off on the highway where that's the only place I could presumably hit a consistant 33psi.

I've sent my logs and my thoughts out to Terry@BMS and maybe we can get some happy middle ground. So far, BMS is way out front though in terms of plugging it in and getting the high boost. I would entertain going back to map1 to see if it stops at 30 or 31psi but in terms of driveability, map2 is definitely much better. For me, I'm back to my custom Map6 because I do not want my boost to spike past 27.5psi. If I wanted a little more gusto I know how to adjust it to get a little higher, but I'm content.

I think what would be nice to compare xcelir8bmw is if the JB4 itself in either form of a custom map or map2 is better/worse than the TDI box you have... but the proof is in the pudding that JB4 can put out a ton of boost, which I am still thinking the TDI isn't hitting that much. Driveability is also a big thing though, which you say the TDI feels pretty good compared to stock. *The JB4 drives fine and smooth, but that map2 makes it drive much much better.*

[xcelir8bmw]

Originally Posted by rice_rocket88

Wowsers.. so I have some interesting news.

Okay I was trying to take my logs of partial-full throttle with the map2 and custom map6 and did some experimenting. First of all, on a nice steady acceleration onto the highway without punching it, I managed to hit boost limit on map2 and have it bounce into failsafe mode.. yes this is when the boost hits too high, somewhere around 30 from what I gather.

The new trick is.. if you unplug that CANBUS OBDII sensor you can run it all the way up with no failsafe! I am looking at my logs right now on the first run and at 75% throttle I managed to get it to spike to 33.1 psi! Fuel trims and AFR remain maxed and at 15. Now I'm assuming that the new car has a sensitive enough O2 sensor (like wideband) that the reading of 15 is true and it still has plenty of FUEL to go. So.... the only concern is: Can the plastic intercooler pipes handle 33 psi? Certainly other older N54/N55 cars don't like that much boost and start popping off pipes/cracking it. This car is obviously designed to start off at let's round it up to 23psi. On the older builds, they weren't meant to go up to 23psi. So.. I'm sure it's over engineered to take more boost.. but at what limit does it stop??

I'm not out for glory drags or HP numbers, just daily driving my car. But I obviously don't ever want it to pop off on the highway where that's the only place I could presumably hit a consistant 33psi.

I've sent my logs and my thoughts out to Terry@BMS and maybe we can get some happy middle ground. So far, BMS is way out front though in terms of plugging it in and getting the high boost. I would entertain going back to map1 to see if it stops at 30 or 31psi but in terms of driveability, map2 is definitely much better. For me, I'm back to my custom Map6 because I do not want my boost to spike past 27.5psi. If I wanted a little more gusto I know how to adjust it to get a little higher, but I'm content.

I think what would be nice to compare xcelir8bmw is if the JB4 itself in either form of a custom map or map2 is better/worse than the TDI box you have... but the proof is in the pudding that JB4 can put out a ton of boost, which I am still thinking the TDI isn't hitting that much. Driveability is also a big thing though, which you say the TDI feels pretty good compared to stock. *The JB4 drives fine and smooth, but that map2 makes it drive much much better.*

My custom boost gauge project has started. I'll probably have it done tonight/tomorrow/early Saturday AM (latest).

With that being said, the JB4 sounds a little 'iffy' to me right now. I did receive it via FedEx - but unopened the package.

In my last long phone conversation with TDI yesterday, it was made very clear that the MAP on my car, right now, can only get more aggressive with ease. This would be on mode 7. Remember guys, I have modes 1-7, least to most aggressive. So I am tuning to mode 7, most aggressive with hopes (sure I'll get there unless I already am) at 3-4 PSI consistent over stock. And we'll see what happens for max boost, what PSI that is at.

The RPM sensor is super important - JB4 doesn't have that (maybe OBDII it does). And that's how TDI helps control boost spike and fuel dump.

I'm very happy with the partnership with TDI at this point. Especially with the addition of a real boost gauge.

I know in my gut, that this will be the better solution over JB4 at this point - for a plug and play system with the right MAP that has 7 modes + off.

That's my hope and promise made by TDI. I'm sure we'll get there, only a few days remaining, probably by Monday night.

Worst case, I will install the JB4 in it's place (with the OBDII cable, not happy about that) and rinse/repeat.

[Davy Jordi]

okay, so i'll chime in and say that because this car is under warranty and because the device can be easily removed, i'm going to run map 2 only because i don't think that in normal daily driving -- even highway driving where the car is at a constant, let's say 2500rpm -- is going to have any detrimental effect on the internals. but, if it does, all i have to do is take the device off and bam! i have no idea what happened, mr. service advisor. i was just driving along as normal and then suddenly something went wrong.

it's either that, or i create a custom map like rice_rocket has done and if that's the way to go then i'm sure that the drivability of the machine isn't nearly going to be as fun as it is now and going back to stock after running it on map 2 is going to be even worse. it's a shame that map 1 is so poorly done, at least in our application of this variant of the b48 engine.

thoughts? am i just a ticking time bomb using map 2 in regular driving where i'm not driving WOT and this car will never see a track day in its lifetime...?

[rice_rocket88]

I agree with you Davy you'll be fine as from I gather with your driving behavior and traffic you will almost never see that 30+ Psi which is the only thing I'm worried about. The custom map is a breeze to make.. but I want that extra map2 oomfph!

[//TMT]

Originally Posted by xcelir8bmw

Sure an optimal MAP doesn't use OBDII for sensors?

May I ask, what do you mean by "MAP"? Usually that stands for Manifold Absolute Pressure, and OBD-II is a diagnostic protocol, so I'm confused.

[Davy Jordi]

Originally Posted by rice_rocket88

I agree with you Davy you'll be fine as from I gather with your driving behavior and traffic you will almost never see that 30+ Psi which is the only thing I'm worried about. The custom map is a breeze to make.. but I want that extra map2 oomfph!

so i took the unit off because i might just want to keep this car longterm and while map2 is much more refined than map 1 it's still a bit unpredictable at times when you put down the throttle past a certain point for who knows what reason in that it will provide for an immense like utterly immense amount of boost that will surge the car forward. knowing that i do not have the failsafe there to protect the engine is not comforting at all and i would rather err on the side of caution than be the guinea pig for BMS.

back to BMS the unit goes if they will allow for a return at this point and really they should because this unit isn't optimized for the variant of the b48 engine that we have in our m35is. if not, i guess i took a 650 dollar hit, but i'd rather that than lose an engine with BMW casting a suspicious eye.

that aside, i broke a damn clip on one of the sensors - it's the little white thing that latches onto the sensor. like the entire thing itself still snaps on securely so i guess the white thing is superfluous or something? i dunno, but i broke it. oops.

[Davy Jordi]

Originally Posted by //TMT

May I ask, what do you mean by "MAP"? Usually that stands for Manifold Absolute Pressure, and OBD-II is a diagnostic protocol, so I'm confused.

i found this on some website:

"The general principal of mapping is to run the engine at each of the defined rpm and throttle sites, adjust the fuel and/or spark to the required values and then save these changes in the ECU."

[Fuel-It!]

Originally Posted by xcelir8bmw

Worst case, I will install the JB4 in it's place (with the OBDII cable, not happy about that) and rinse/repeat.

I don't frequent this forum often but noticed your post and figured I'd take a couple minutes to clear it up a bit. CANbus gives the JB4 access to every sensor on the vehicle and almost as importantly internal calculations that like fuel trims and knock. No tune without CANbus is going to provide a proper level of safety and refinement. While the JB4 can be run without CANbus you're dramatically limiting what it can do.

From the JB4 FAQ:

What’s the difference between JB4 and RaceChip?

JB4 vs racechip dte nm vr afe scorcher lap uncle and countless others.

While the JB4 is the best and most highly developed piggyback tuning system there is no shortage of would-be competitors. We’ll discuss just a handful of the differences below.

What is CANbus anyway? CANBus is the spinal cord that connects the many modules or computers throughout your vehicle together and allows them to operate as a cohesive team. When a technician plugs a tool in to the OBDII port for diagnostics, it’s tapping in to the CANbus allowing full access to the entire vehicle. The JB4 includes this same level of vehicle-wide computer integration. A JB4 with its CANbus connection can read virtually every sensor on your vehicle including critical internal calculations like fuel trims and knock count. This allows the JB4 to take gas pedal position, throttle position, oil temperature, water temperature, intake temperature, engine speed, air/fuel ratio, fuel trims, ignition advance, knock, and countless other factors in to your tuning, providing smoother, stronger, and safer performance. On the other hand boxes like RaceChip without CANbus are limited to reading only the boost sensors they attach to resulting in a “MAP clamp” tuning approach. Common symptoms of non-CANbus related tunes include stuttering, poor shifting, and reduced top-end performance. Since these systems can’t correct the conditions causing the issue, their only solution to any tuning issue is to “turn down the boost”.

It’s not just about boost. While boost control is the most visible aspect of piggyback tuning it’s important to keep in mind fuel & ignition control are just as critical to engine performance and safety. Cranking up boost without properly accounting for fueling and ignition can result in detonation, knocking, stuttering, excessive EGT melting parts, and degraded performance. While JB4 strategies for fuel and ignition control vary by platform - using its additional signal ports, processing power, and CANbus - boost, timing, and fuel are always accounted for. And unlike other the tuning systems, you don’t need to take our word for it. The JB4 allows monitoring of all critical engine criteria including diagnostic faults in real time via the optional JB4 mobile app.

What’s with all the different JB4 systems? Each JB4 is designed from the ground up specifically for your vehicle. That includes BMS sourcing one of every vehicle we of support for development and long term R&D. It’s why you’ll usually see *actual* dyno charts and performance metrics for each vehicle on our website and why the JB4 systems themselves need to vary by platform. With each application we optimize the JB4 hardware and software for that specific platform and we always commit to future development through free JB4 software updates that can be loaded via the optional JB4 mobile app. Updates that give the JB4 improved performance, new features, more mapping options, and much more. It’s why you’ll often see BMS employees active within Facebook groups and car forums interacting with our customers for feedback and ideas for improving the JB4 for that specific application.

Our competitors, on the other hand, usually take a universal approach to tuning. Using the same hardware and software they apply the minimum required changes to make it compatible across as many different turbocharged vehicles as possible, often ignoring critical platform differences and changing only the MAP sensor connections on the harness before moving on to the next vehicle application never to return.

What’s the deal with the gas mileage claims? JB4 competitors often make false claims of “improved fuel economy” using their tuning systems. It is not possible to improve fuel economy using MAP sensor tuning and generally speaking more horsepower requires more fuel to support it. So what is the basis of these claims? It all comes down to how fuel economy is measured by the factory computer in some vehicles. Since RaceChip and other simplistic MAP clamp tuning systems apply a preset boost increase at all times regardless of gas pedal position or operational mode, some vehicles base their internal mileage reading off this full time bogus signal resulting in higher than actual mileage displayed in dash. If you measure economy using your trip meter in dash you’ll discover not that fuel economy has increased but rather that RaceChip has simply made the internal gas mileage reading inaccurate. The JB4 on the other hand generally does not negatively affect the economy readings in dash, and while it’s always true that making more power requires more fuel, with the JB4 you’re only using more fuel when racing around under heavy throttle making more power. Fuel economy during normal driving with the JB4 enabled is unchanged.

[Fuel-It!]

Originally Posted by rice_rocket88

Wowsers.. so I have some interesting news.

Okay I was trying to take my logs of partial-full throttle with the map2 and custom map6 and did some experimenting. First of all, on a nice steady acceleration onto the highway without punching it, I managed to hit boost limit on map2 and have it bounce into failsafe mode.. yes this is when the boost hits too high, somewhere around 30 from what I gather.

The new trick is.. if you unplug that CANBUS OBDII sensor you can run it all the way up with no failsafe! I am looking at my logs right now on the first run and at 75% throttle I managed to get it to spike to 33.1 psi!

PSI (boost) is read pre-throttle so a "spike" reading is expected under certain situations, like when the throttle is partially closed blocking pressure to the manifold. PSI2 is manifold boost and what you'd want to look at in terms of boost the engine is seeing.

Post up your specific JB4 log here if you want more useful feedback but it sounds like you're misinterpreting the results and spreading unnecessary fear in the process.

OBDII is currently required for all but the most basic "RaceChip" style tuning. Why would you ever unplug it? With no OBDII the tuning can't monitor throttle, air/fuel, knock, or anything else useful other than boost. I'll certainly relay to BMS what you are trying to do so they can at least enable the over-boost safety in your firmware for non-CANbus use.

[xcelir8bmw]

Originally Posted by //TMT

May I ask, what do you mean by "MAP"? Usually that stands for Manifold Absolute Pressure, and OBD-II is a diagnostic protocol, so I'm confused.

engrwish grammar

map

[xcelir8bmw]

Originally Posted by Davy Jordi

so i took the unit off because i might just want to keep this car longterm and while map2 is much more refined than map 1 it's still a bit unpredictable at times when you put down the throttle past a certain point for who knows what reason in that it will provide for an immense like utterly immense amount of boost that will surge the car forward. knowing that i do not have the failsafe there to protect the engine is not comforting at all and i would rather err on the side of caution than be the guinea pig for BMS.

back to BMS the unit goes if they will allow for a return at this point and really they should because this unit isn't optimized for the variant of the b48 engine that we have in our m35is. if not, i guess i took a 650 dollar hit, but i'd rather that than lose an engine with BMW casting a suspicious eye.

that aside, i broke a damn clip on one of the sensors - it's the little white thing that latches onto the sensor. like the entire thing itself still snaps on securely so i guess the white thing is superfluous or something? i dunno, but i broke it. oops.

We all broke a clip.

[xcelir8bmw]

Originally Posted by Davy Jordi

so i took the unit off because i might just want to keep this car longterm and while map2 is much more refined than map 1 it's still a bit unpredictable at times when you put down the throttle past a certain point for who knows what reason in that it will provide for an immense like utterly immense amount of boost that will surge the car forward. knowing that i do not have the failsafe there to protect the engine is not comforting at all and i would rather err on the side of caution than be the guinea pig for BMS.

back to BMS the unit goes if they will allow for a return at this point and really they should because this unit isn't optimized for the variant of the b48 engine that we have in our m35is. if not, i guess i took a 650 dollar hit, but i'd rather that than lose an engine with BMW casting a suspicious eye.

that aside, i broke a damn clip on one of the sensors - it's the little white thing that latches onto the sensor. like the entire thing itself still snaps on securely so i guess the white thing is superfluous or something? i dunno, but i broke it. oops.

IMO, just install the OBDII cable. It should solve the issue. Don't be upset like I was with this stuff. Chill out, reinstall it. Put the OBDII cable on and drive.

[Fuel-It!]

Originally Posted by Davy Jordi

yeah, that's what i'm doing -- not logging. pain in the ass.

just drive the car and have fun.

If you have the app the logging happens automatically. The default setting for the app is to combine all logs in to one file, if you've changed that setting on the logging tab just change it back. Then nothing special needs to be done. While connected the app will record data and from the app you can email the log to BMS or yourself, open in the charting tool in the app, or open in the free windows software, to view it.

[billnchristy]

Just out of curiosity, have you guys ever had issues with the alarm going off with something plugged in obd port? If I leave my scanner in and lock it goes off immediately.

[rice_rocket88]

Originally Posted by billnchristy

Just out of curiosity, have you guys ever had issues with the alarm going off with something plugged in obd port? If I leave my scanner in and lock it goes off immediately.

Not with the JB4.. actually don't think I ever tried to lock it with my scanner in. And my e60 did not set the alarm off with it on.. I accidentally forgot it plugged in.

[rice_rocket88]

Originally Posted by Fuel-It!

PSI (boost) is read pre-throttle so a "spike" reading is expected under certain situations, like when the throttle is partially closed blocking pressure to the manifold. PSI2 is manifold boost and what you'd want to look at in terms of boost the engine is seeing.

Post up your specific JB4 log here if you want more useful feedback but it sounds like you're misinterpreting the results and spreading unnecessary fear in the process.

OBDII is currently required for all but the most basic "RaceChip" style tuning. Why would you ever unplug it? With no OBDII the tuning can't monitor throttle, air/fuel, knock, or anything else useful other than boost. I'll certainly relay to BMS what you are trying to do so they can at least enable the over-boost safety in your firmware for non-CANbus use.

Thanks for popping in on this forum, I am not sure your exact relation with BMS, but I would love extra information. I have been patiently emailing back and forth with Terry since I got this unit, and I am waiting to hear his reply from my findings from today.

I am not sure, however, how I am misinterpreting the results... I have proved over and over with logs sent to Terry that map 1 and map2 will freak out and put the car into map 8 failsafe. That is a FACT.. it does it. When I unplugged the OBDII sensor I could full throttle the map2.. which I admit made me a tad uneasy. With my eyes glued to the JB4 interface I could hold it steady way over 30psi. So what other conclusions would you come to?

Anyways, I'm glad to put some logs up here.. let me see what I can grab.

[rice_rocket88]

Here's a log of Map2 where I tried to ease into accelleration, then it goes to map8 and the next couple successive accellerations boost was capped to 14.

[rice_rocket88]

Here's a few with the custom map from may when it was pretty hot outside still. Boost add was 1, boost limit set to 27. To note I've managed a peak of 27.5 in this cooler weather with the map6. I was trying to find it, but can't dig it up right now.. I might have deleted it.



And.. if you could even try to explain why Map 2 is some magical map where the car is way more throttle responsive, and even shifts faster I would love to hear your input!

[Davy Jordi]

okay, so i did install the obdii cable and the car/unit is/are not reading any data. it's as though i have nothing plugged in at all, although everything is clearly ultra mega tightly sealed.

also, i have the carb version of the unit, so i don't quite understand which firmware would protect against an unsafe amount of boost as would be expected with either 17 or 18, i forgot which now, but i don't have either of those, so that's inconsequential. i'm awaiting to hear back from terry from bms. hopefully i'll be able to use more than just map 1 because that would be lame af.