Lowered on KW Variant 3

[KonigsTiger]

Yea Orb, please keep posting your findings as I will certainly apply these to my car.

[Orb]

Originally Posted by doba_s

good info Orb ... thanks for your input

what would you say about Dinan and H&R springs for e92 m3 ? would it be in the same category as KW or closer to the stock specs ?

thanks.

I really don’t have much to say about H&R lowering springs as they seem to be marketed for those who want a drop that is cheap. The Dinan solution look to be a good one but I am not sure I would buy another suspension system that will has not discloses spring rates. Dinan will most likely disclose the spring rates if you ask them as they seem to be fairly upfront when asking these questions. You be surprised what info one can get with a phone call.

Originally Posted by Blip Bavarian

Orb, Thanks for all the great info. I think i speak for all of us when i say that we greatly appreciate your explanations.

What setup would you use on an M3? Or would you leave it stock?

The M3 is great handling car on the track in stock form. It does everything well when in the right hands. If you start tracking often then a suspension system upgrade is worth it. I would be staying stock or do modest upgrade like the Dinan solution if they disclosed the spring rates. For a track solution, I would go with the Moton or JRZ at the moment as they can be easily customized and most importantly they have people to help you with this.

Orb

[Orb]

Originally Posted by BMW-M-Mexico

Yea Orb, please keep posting your findings as I will certainly apply these to my car.

Sure....at some point I will post a load transfer worksheet I have been modifying. This was based on someone else work but I corrected all the errors and added a lot new functionality. I will complete the damping rate part over the holidays which was completely wrong. The dampening rate calculator will allow you to specify you dampening rate for low and high speed damping (the car listed is not a M3 in the Calc).

Orb

[doba_s]

Originally Posted by Orb

I really don’t have much to say about H&R lowering springs as they seem to be marketed for those who want a drop that is cheap. The Dinan solution look to be a good one but I am not sure I would buy another suspension system that will has not discloses spring rates. Dinan will most likely disclose the spring rates if you ask them as they seem to be fairly upfront when asking these questions. You be surprised what info one can get with a phone call.



Orb

Yeah, I didn't see a lot of info about H&R except some reviews here on the forum. But I was very surprised reading about Turner's(TMS) M3 and how well they did at LIME ROCK PARK with H&R springs ... not sure if something else was done to the suspension ...

On your pictures I see a set of springs that look like H&R ... were you able to test them and to get some numbers for your 335 ? Just want to see if they are far off from the stock specs ...

Thanks.

[Orb]

Originally Posted by doba_s

Yeah, I didn't see a lot of info about H&R except some reviews here on the forum. But I was very surprised reading about Turner's(TMS) M3 and how well they did at LIME ROCK PARK with H&R springs ... not sure if something else was done to the suspension ...

On your pictures I see a set of springs that look like H&R ... were you able to test them and to get some numbers for your 335 ? Just want to see if they are far off from the stock specs ...

Thanks.

I think TMS will be running 60 mm race spring not the kit with Moton dampers. I don’t like the idea they changed the drop it just for looks as this will affect the weight balance.

Some of those springs I have are H&R. I actually have another bunch in my garage that are from Hypercoil which are the best in the industry. After all my testing I kind come to one conclusion that BMW has it right for spring biasing between the front and rear. Going with stiffer spring and scaling the stiffness guaranties some degree of success with not much effort. This is a reasonable assumption to make to start with but it seems to be the case after messing around with this for months.

My next setup is very close to M3 is stiffness biasing. The springs are within 3% and the roll bars are with 2%....this is just happen to how it just worked out right or wrong. FWIW, almost all my links and bushing are from M3 but this is a longer story.

Orb

[KonigsTiger]

Originally Posted by Orb

Sure....at some point I will post a load transfer worksheet I have been modifying. This was based on someone else work but I corrected all the errors and added a lot new functionality. I will complete the damping rate part over the holidays which was completely wrong. The dampening rate calculator will allow you to specify you dampening rate for low and high speed damping (the car listed is not a M3 in the Calc).

Orb

Fantastic really! I am working on thicker sway bars and lowering springs as we speak, but would love to hear your opinion on what you think works best.

[Krueger///M3]

O.T. But I want to see your new interior BMW-M-Mexico!

[Glen@KW]

Originally Posted by Orb

Some may want to look at some hard numbers beforing jumping on a train wreck.

.....Any serious tracking and most of these after market system are out of their minds unless they supply a complete solution to rebalance the car will roll bars. I’m don’t mean to pick on KW but these lower end solution are beyond under achieving.
Orb

Hello Orb & everyone at Bimmerpost,

First I would like to commend everyone, especially Orb, for their work on their vehicles. Without your enthusiasm & desire to individualize your vehicles, there would be no aftermarket.

The staff at KW take the information that has been presented here very seriously, and be assured that the concerns posted are being looked at by our engineers in Germany as we speak. We also have a direct dialog with Orb and will be able to address these concerns shortly.

The comment above is one that I believe can be answered now without any engineering input and comes down to one statement:

Intended Use – What do you need your suspension to do?

In any situation with vehicles you have compromises. That is why the manufactures build what they build, and how they build it.

A Mini Van is not intended to go on the track to pull lap times; it is intended to haul people, the same way an Aston Martin DBR9 is designed as a GT1 race car, not as a people hauler.

Even with sport models, their chassis design, tire choice, suspension, brakes etc... Literally everything is a compromise with a specific lean towards the anticipated target market and driving level.

With the KW lineup, we are really no different. We offer the following product lines that target different markets and driving levels within a sub segment of the market – Driving Enthusiasts:

Street Systems:

• Variant 1 - Pre Tuned for a compromise between increased handling and ride comfort.

• Variant 2 – Tuned as the Variant 1, with the added feature of having the Driver be able to influence the Rebound dampening Characteristic for a more individualized ride comfort & performance.

• Variant 3 – as with the Variant 1, but a bit more of a lean towards sport handling, enabling the Driver to adjust both the Compression and Rebound dampening characteristics independent of one another to further dial in the ride to the needs of the driver.

• Street Comfort – Similar to our Variant 2, with more of a lean towards comfort than handling.

Hybrid Systems:

• Club Sport – KW Clubsport systems are a V3 / 2 way hybrid designed to provide the Daily Driver/ Weekend Racer a flexible suspension that will allow them to be competitive on the weekend track days, while not sacrificing their kidneys during their daily commute.

Competition/Race Systems:

• 2 Way – Built to order based on the needs of the intended use of the vehicle. Spring rates, valving, body construction based on the forces that the vehicle will encounter are all taken into account during the design and build of these kits.

They are adjusted similarly to the V3 & Clubsport kits, with independent Compression and Rebound that primarily focus on the low to mid speed of the damper range. Of course the dampening range is tailored to the specified spring rates and vehicle dynamics.

For example factory bodied cars used in Vehicle Specific Series such as Mini Challenge, Suzuki Ignis Cup etc... They can also be delivered with TUV approval for use on street vehicles.

• 3 Way – These kits are similar to the 2 way kits as they are also built to order, but they feature not only low and mid speed adjustment on the compression and rebound, but add in adjustment of the high speed compression forces as well.

These systems are used in Top level motorsport activities such as American Lemans as well as the WTCC touring car series.

It is this wide range of capabilities, combined with our ability to meet the highest production standards that have enabled KW to supply some of the highest level performance Street Vehicles that are produced today, the AMG Black Series, and the ACR Viper.

So in summary, before you can judge any one particular product, you need to make sure you understand its intent, and I am hoping that my explanations above help you all in understanding KW’s product line and each individual models intent.

I look forward to posting our engineers findings on the items put forth by Orb, and answering any and all of your following questions.

[sparkyg]

Originally Posted by doba_s

good info Orb ... thanks for your input

what would you say about Dinan and H&R springs for e92 m3 ? would it be in the same category as KW or closer to the stock specs ?

thanks.

+1 Orb, great info and really impressive work effort.

[Orb]

Originally Posted by BMW-M-Mexico

Fantastic really! I am working on thicker sway bars and lowering springs as we speak, but would love to hear your opinion on what you think works best.

An easier question would be “what doesn’t work well” because I have lot of those setups. I don’t have a perfect setup yet but I am closing in on what I should do and in the midst of changing hardware to support this. Part of the problem in getting a good setup is the ability to make spring changes and compensate for them with different size roll bars. There is not a lot of selection of roll bars so you are limited in the choices you can make. The main reason I’m going to post the load transfer worksheet to empower you and others to be able make you suspension selection decision for yourself and not blindly take what is given to you. Hopefully as groups you can all work together and make improvements to the data sets and discuss various setups.

The KW v3 and other similar dampers do have the range to be converted to 60 mm spring. The KW by far has the best designed camber plate on the market and they are remarkably quiet. I’m not sure why they are not marketed more. Running a 230 lb/in front spring with 800 lb/in rear spring would give you close to the same stiffness biasing as the stock and seems to be within the range of the damper but Glen from KW would be the best person to ask about this. The TC Kline Koni is nice damper as well and reasonably priced and customizable. I wouldn't get the camber plates however.

Glen made a very good point and the question is what would like and it the first thing one should ask them selves when looking into a system. I think this might be good time for all of you say what you want out of system.

[KonigsTiger]

Originally Posted by Orb

An easier question would be “what doesn’t work well” because I have lot of those setups. I don’t have a perfect setup yet but I am closing in on what I should do and in the midst of changing hardware to support this. Part of the problem in getting a good setup is the ability to make spring changes and compensate for them with different size roll bars. There is not a lot of selection of roll bars so you are limited in the choices you can make. The main reason I’m going to post the load transfer worksheet to empower you and others to be able make you suspension selection decision for yourself and not blindly take what is given to you. Hopefully as groups you can all work together and make improvements to the data sets and discuss various setups.

The KW v3 and other similar dampers do have the range to be converted to 60 mm spring. The KW by far has the best designed camber plate on the market and they are remarkably quiet. I’m not sure why they are not marketed more. Running a 230 lb/in front spring with 800 lb/in rear spring would give you close to the same stiffness biasing as the stock and seems to be within the range of the damper but Glen from KW would be the best person to ask about this. The TC Kline Koni is nice damper as well and reasonably priced and customizable. I wouldn't get the camber plates however.

Glen made a very good point and the question is what would like and it the first thing one should ask them selves when looking into a system. I think this might be good time for all of you say what you want out of system.

I can personally tell you that this car is by no means a daily driver, although I do take it on trips sometimes to the office and track us. I don´t really care about driving comfort and do want to make it the best performing and handling street-track M possible. The stocker will certainly give me the power I need while reducing a tad of weight. Now its time to work an a suspension system.

[sparkyg]

Originally Posted by Glen@KW

I look forward to posting our engineers findings on the items put forth by Orb, and answering any and all of your following questions.

Look forward to more info, will be interesting based on what we have learned so far.

[Glen@KW]

Hello again everyone.

After speaking with our staff here they brought up the work we have done in the USA with the 1 series this year (which shares a very similar platform with the current 3 series), and wanted to share that info with the members of the community while we wait for more data from Germany.

According to Wikipedia (as an independent source, not just taking our word for it ) the major differences between the 1 and 3 series are:
• Length: the 1 Series Coupe is 220 mm (8.7 in) shorter than 3-series Coupé (E92)
• Weight: The curb weight is only a 90 lb (41 kg) reduction from the 335i Coupé.

KW USA Data on this Platform:

Case 1:
Earlier this year, we enlisted VJ Mirzayan, a current driver for the Turner Motorsports Team in the 2008 Grand-Am KONI Challenge Series Street Tuner class to do testing on our suspension offerings for the new 1 Series BMW at Buttonwillow raceway.

(datasheet and telemetry are posted below for your review)

We performed the following testing on a 100% stock E82 Coupe with the 3.0 L 300 hp (220 kW) Twin Turbo:

1. OEM configuration
2. OEM with Alignment & Front Swaybar Upgrade (ST suspensions prototype, one of our other brands in the USA)
3. Variant 1 with Alignment & Front Swaybar Upgrade, REAR SWAYBAR REMOVED
4. Variant 3 with Alignment & Front Swaybar Upgrade, REAR SWAYBAR REMOVED
5. Club Sport with Alignment & Front Swaybar Upgrade, REAR SWAYBAR REMOVED

On each step 1 through 5, VJ gained approximately 2 seconds on each previous step in progression. The OEM posted a 2:23.45 lap, while the fifth and final step KW Clubsport equipped vehicle posted a 2:14.19 lap, 9.3 seconds faster per lap.

Case 2:
A V3 equipped vehicle was installed in the BMW Club Racing Series H-Stock class driven by veteran driver Ralph Warren (http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=281136)

I just received this information today:
“It looks like it was a great 1st year after all for the 135i project (which included a cross-country trip and back to Watkins Glen).

We were able to set 2 track records in our class (H-Stock) and pending final announcements from BMW Club Racing, it looks like driver Ralph Warren should win the H-Stock National Championship with the car.

We've been getting some on track photos back from the photographers. Check them out in this photo gallery (you can see them in full size by clicking on the photos until you get to the larger version):

http://www.bimmerfest.com/photos/sho...y.php/cat/3143

Thank you for all the support in helping to make it happen!

Scott Cary”

Case 3 - Just Added
I just received this additional information on another 1 series that we worked with using the data from Buttonwillow in Case 1. This vehicle is owned by Madness Motorworks and was competing in the eurotuner GP 2008, and set the fastest lap time in this competition on our V3 kit at Willow Springs.

http://www.eurotuner.com/videos/6203...deo/index.html


Thank you all again for your time, and please let me know if you have any questions on this data, or on any other KW products for that matter.

[KonigsTiger]

Wow, I would have thought the difference in weight to be significantly larger. Surprise surprise!

[serven7]

I would be interested in hearing more Greg(& Orb).

[Green-Eggs]

KW calculating actual information makes a lot more sense, looks like there is a lot more real data than the body roll calculator

(The KW graph looks like something from F1)

Trust the company that do their homework to develop products.

[Blip Bavarian]

Glen, Thank you for your thorough responses and participation on M3post.

Does KW have any plans to develop a coilover system that is EDC compatible. One that would allow adjustments at the push of a button? I think that would be the best thing for me, and many of the enthusiasts on this site.

If so, when? If not, why? Thanks in advance.

[Speedtrap]

Really nice drop.....

[Orb]

Originally Posted by Sam@AutoTalent

KW calculating actual information makes a lot more sense, looks like there is a lot more real data than the body roll calculator

(The KW graph looks like something from F1)

Trust the company that do their homework to develop products.

Your comments are fairly disrespectful to Glen who I honestly think is tiring to answer some question but you seem bent on adding nonsense to this thread and this will lead to one end. KW doesn’t have any magical power over physics so you would imply. The roll calculator is a tool. Do you even know what it is…obviously not, and it is probably best this way. Most are focused on the large difference in spring basing from the OEM setup which will cause significant under steer (this is not even debatable). The one series information is irrelevant to this discussion unfortunately and a bit left field for a M3 forum…..if you read far enough you will find that one person never did solve the “heavy car under steer” and never will. The big front bar tuning nonsense is a hack for crippled cars with no LSD. Do I need to go on....

Orb

[Radiation Joe]

Originally Posted by Orb

Your comments are fairly disrespectful to Glen who I honestly think is tiring to answer some question but you seem bent to on adding nonsense to this thread and this will lead to one end. KW doesn’t have any magical power over physics so you would imply. The roll calculator is a tool. Do you even know what it is…obviously not and it is probably best this way. Most are focused on the large difference in spring basing from the OEM setup which will cause significant under steer (this is not even debatable). The one series information is irrelevant to this discussion unfortunately and a bit left field for a M3 forum…..if you read far enough you will find that one person never did solve the “heavy car under steer” and never will. The big front bar tuning nonsense is a hack for crippled cars with no LSD. Do I need to go on....

Orb

Please recheck your medication labels.

[Glen@KW]

Originally Posted by Blip Bavarian

Glen, Thank you for your thorough responses and participation on M3post.

Does KW have any plans to develop a coilover system that is EDC compatible. One that would allow adjustments at the push of a button? I think that would be the best thing for me, and many of the enthusiasts on this site.

If so, when? If not, why? Thanks in advance.

Hello Blip Bavarian,

Thanks for the question.

The EDC debate is one that we have discussed internally for some time, and here is where KW stands.

Currently we do not foresee producing an EDC compatible system for our Coilover kits and here is a peak into our thought process.

Today we offer a Variant 3 system for the M3. With the available wide range of independent compression and rebound adjustment of the V3 dampers how could you settle for only 2 pre-set options?

If you could, what would they be?

Opinions always vary, but that is the beauty of the V3 system; the ability of the Driving Enthusiast to tailor the ride to their liking and or requirements with a simple adjustment.

I know from my own experience with the V3’s on my Audi TTQ I have found and logged 4 settings that I will adjust my system to depending on what I am doing with the car. It’s quick, easy and gratification is immediate .

• Daily Commute – flat, straight and on questionable asphalt
• After work / Weekend foothills run in the Sequoia & Kings Canyon foothills – quite curvy with major elevation changes.
• Track Settings – Willow Springs, Buttonwillow or Infineon so far…
• Highway Driving - Fresno to LA or Fresno to Vancouver BC (my hometown) with some high speed maneuvering on the Grapevine or across Grants Pass on the 1-5

The next point is the Price. The electronics to interpret the BMW ECU signals and convert them to two motors on each Damper that would turn the adjusters, along with any and all additional wiring would add up really quickly, and the business case quickly disappears.

Q:What price do you think you would accept on top of your coilovers to have this type of feature?

On the other hand, a universal system to do this type of adjusting using an independent interface may be more cost effective as it could be amortized across a larger audience/multiple applications. This possibility is still being discussed at the top levels within the company. We will keep everyone posted as to how or if that idea evolves.

I hope that helps you understand our position, and I look forward to your feedback.

[gthirtyfizle]

Deff makes a lot of sense. Thank you very much both Orb and Glen for the very useful information.