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BIMMERPOST Universal Forums Professional Motorsport Racing Discussion (IMSA, DTM, Formula 1, Grand-AM, Le Mans, IRL, WRC, etc..) Tragedy at the VLN opening race today at Nurburgring

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      03-30-2015, 07:53 AM   #67
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Very unfortunate
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      03-30-2015, 08:00 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeiz View Post
Such a tragic event.

This reminds me an awful lot of the '99 Le Mans crash(es):

Not a particularly isolated event either. 1998 it happened to Porsche at Petit Le Mans, and it happened to BMW too with the V12 LMR in 2000.

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      03-30-2015, 08:20 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matski
Quote:
Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut View Post
What are you talking about?

A race spec car, based on a fucking production car. AND it comes with stability management from Nissan, and don't think otherwise. Just because they're in a full on race means nothing of the contrary.

Leaving stability management on surprisingly does wonders, even at the race track.

Actually since they are in a full on race it makes all the difference. Since you don't have a clue what you are on about, let me explain.

I've included download links to the relevant documents so you can read the PDF's for yourself.

The Nissan GT-R GT3 Nismo that crashed at the Nrburgring was competing in the VLN SP9 class. As per the DMSB regulations - SP9 relates to FIA GT3 spec cars. The FIA GT3 Technical regulations clause 2.10 is as follows:

2.10
Assistance au pilotage / Driving aids
Tout systme de contrle lectronique de stabilit est
interdit. / Any electronic stability control system is forbidden.


I hope that makes it clear.
Well then there is the problem.

THIER STUPID RULES AND CRAPPY SAFETY RAIL JUST KILLED A MAN.

THERE IS THE CLUE FOR THE RULE MAKERS.
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      03-30-2015, 09:02 AM   #70
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How is stability control going to help when your car is airborn? Not following the logic.
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      03-30-2015, 09:03 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
How is stability control going to help when your car is airborn? Not following the logic.
It definitely wont! dont worry, your thought process is correct
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      03-30-2015, 09:06 AM   #72
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Maybe car should be set up with flight controls.
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      03-30-2015, 09:12 AM   #73
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I think this is more about the safety fence, rails, spectator access areas than the cars themselves
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      03-30-2015, 09:13 AM   #74
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Agreed. Huge track to renovate every detail though
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      03-30-2015, 10:54 AM   #75
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I have raced in VLN for past 3 years with 2 24 hour races now and I can say unfortunately its not unexpected for cars to lift off on flugplatz some at a very high elevation. this particular combination with a smooth plane undercarriage its not a matter of if, just when. Even in the lower classes you should scrub a little speed before the jump which levels the car. however in a race its contradictory to do that. you want to take advantage of this when you can so you can take a gamble with a car such as a GTR GT3 with very high level of mechanical grip.

I'm guessing they will throw in a control measure forcing cars to slow down like a double yellow up flugplatz. wouldn't cause too much impact as normally you will have somewhere on the track thats double yellow because of some incident preventing the disabled vehicle from being removed safely during the race.

long term if they want to keep the upper echelon cars racing at the N24, VLN, RCN, etc etc then flugplatz probably has to be resurfaced and spectators should not be at that spot. just hope they leave pflantzgarten 2 alone.

i think its entirely appropriate they limited the aero cars from competing for now until they can implement some controls. drivers all know the risks they take, but its entirely unacceptable for a spectator to die or be injured. i feel aweful for the families and the driver too. he did his job. no fault at all on him. no fault on the car's design. nor of the race organizers. its just a feature of the track that needs to be updated with the times.
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      03-30-2015, 12:26 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elsabor67 View Post
Reported today via Motorsport.com, the German Motorsport Federation, DSMB, has banned all GT3 cars in the SP7 through SP10 and SP-X class from the Nurburgring until further notice. This has thrown into question the upcoming Nurburgring 24 hour race scheduled for the weekend of 14-17 May and also the upcoming VLN series races. The federation wants to analyze what happened in order to implement measures to make sure that it does not happen again.
SP7 – includes Porsche Cup class cars
SP8 – larger-engined non-FIA GT homologated cars – includes Lexus LFA
SP9 – includes FIA GT3-class cars
SP10 – includes FIA GT4-class cars
SPX – other non-homologated GT cars – includes Glickenhaus SCG 003
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      03-30-2015, 02:52 PM   #77
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RIP

That really sucks, I thought to flat bottoms were banned since 2001.
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      03-30-2015, 03:25 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karussell
I have raced in VLN for past 3 years with 2 24 hour races now and I can say unfortunately its not unexpected for cars to lift off on flugplatz some at a very high elevation. this particular combination with a smooth plane undercarriage its not a matter of if, just when. Even in the lower classes you should scrub a little speed before the jump which levels the car. however in a race its contradictory to do that. you want to take advantage of this when you can so you can take a gamble with a car such as a GTR GT3 with very high level of mechanical grip.

I'm guessing they will throw in a control measure forcing cars to slow down like a double yellow up flugplatz. wouldn't cause too much impact as normally you will have somewhere on the track thats double yellow because of some incident preventing the disabled vehicle from being removed safely during the race.

long term if they want to keep the upper echelon cars racing at the N24, VLN, RCN, etc etc then flugplatz probably has to be resurfaced and spectators should not be at that spot. just hope they leave pflantzgarten 2 alone.

i think its entirely appropriate they limited the aero cars from competing for now until they can implement some controls. drivers all know the risks they take, but its entirely unacceptable for a spectator to die or be injured. i feel aweful for the families and the driver too. he did his job. no fault at all on him. no fault on the car's design. nor of the race organizers. its just a feature of the track that needs to be updated with the times.
I agree with everything that you said, with one small exception.

There is, in my opinion of course, a level of blame that could and should be placed on the rule-making organization or race organizers. Especially considering this was known to be a potential issue.

Far too often we react to situations like this by making things inherently safer, when it could have been done ahead of time with a little forethought.
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      03-30-2015, 03:34 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 954Stealth
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD View Post
How is stability control going to help when your car is airborn? Not following the logic.
It definitely wont! dont worry, your thought process is correct
I agree.

You would need some sort of active aerodynamic fail-safe to help in this
situation, all else being the same.

Even then, you would be in a bad situation. There isn't that much margin for error in your initial braking point. By the time you have front wheels on the ground, it's probably too late.
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      03-30-2015, 03:50 PM   #80
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I don't think it's viable though, unfortunately. To add aerodynamic mechanisms to the car JUST for those times when the car is airborne would add a TON of what would effectively be dead weight. It would be hard to keep it all balanced as well with the needed flaps and ailerons
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      03-30-2015, 03:56 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 954Stealth
I don't think it's viable though, unfortunately. To add aerodynamic mechanisms to the car JUST for those times when the car is airborne would add a TON of what would effectively be dead weight. It would hard to keep it all balanced as well with the need flaps and ailerons
I concur
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      03-30-2015, 07:17 PM   #82
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Parachute?
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      03-30-2015, 07:17 PM   #83
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Saw something like this happen with a Ford T-Bird late 80's or early 90's. Car had the aerodynamics of a plane wing and hit a bump. Not good.....

My prayers for those in Germany.
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      03-30-2015, 09:59 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD
Parachute?
Not a serious suggestion, I'm assuming? A chute might work for a horizontal trajectory but not for any type of rotation or spinning.

The only thing they can do here - and quickly enough to get the season restarted - are inputting slowing measures. Maybe chicane or (someone else suggested) a yellow zone or speed limit zone until the fencing and barriers can be strengthened .

I remember a year or 2 ago a huge incident at Spa and the next year that whole section was different and the tires, wall and fencing 10x better. This is exactly what Nurburgring needs to do
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      03-30-2015, 10:12 PM   #85
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It was not serious. Massive front downforce would work and slow cars as well. Or active aero if certain amount of lift detected.
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      03-31-2015, 04:28 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red-sauerkraut View Post
Well then there is the problem.

THIER STUPID RULES AND CRAPPY SAFETY RAIL JUST KILLED A MAN.

THERE IS THE CLUE FOR THE RULE MAKERS.
/facepalm (again)
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      03-31-2015, 05:19 AM   #87
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RIP

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      03-31-2015, 11:47 PM   #88
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One thing about these cars going airborne ... NASCAR, for the most part, has figured this problem out. Most of the aerodynamic devices work before the car goes airborne and they have no "active actuators." They are all based on air pressure (or lack there of) that cause them to open/deploy.

No impedance to aero and no weight ... just body flaps. I would bet that the FIA, if they looked hard enough, would be able to come up with a similar safety reg that would mandate/outline the use of.

One problem though ... It'll take an Ayrton Senna like death for the FIA to look at this problem that they perceive as not a problem. They, the racing sanctioning body, has to enact safety devices. The drivers and team will continue to build and race the fastest & safest (to the rules) cars. A driver and team will choose a car that is 2 secs a lap faster even though it may have a greater chance to kill them over a safer slower car.

This is my opinion ...
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