BMW
X1 / X2
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
BIMMERPOST Universal Forums General BMW News and Cars Discussion M Sport package considered an "M" car?

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      04-10-2021, 12:52 PM   #133
OSee
Captain
800
Rep
697
Posts

Drives: M2 Sold
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Laguna Beach, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dscabra View Post
This, is a distinction I find interesting between Mercedes and BMW. Mercedes doesn't use the AMG badges except on the AMG cars, whereas BMW is freely using the M on all sorts of stuff. It's no wonder that many BMW owners can't distinguish the products.
This is not true. Mercedes invented the formula that BMW is now using. And their enthusiast community was equally split.

Most of Mercedes’ 43 and 53 cars are not “real” AMG cars. And they are covered in AMG badges.

C43 = m340i
C63 = M3

Ask any c63 owner if they think the c43 is a real AMG or ask the same question to a e63 owner about the e53. It would look a lot like this conversation.

Last edited by OSee; 04-10-2021 at 12:59 PM..
Appreciate 2
jmg10683.00
jmack357.50
      04-10-2021, 04:32 PM   #134
mbanck
Lieutenant
401
Rep
585
Posts

Drives: Skoda Karoq
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Munich, Germany

iTrader: (0)

However, there are always two sides to every story. While the buyers don't think an M340i or a C43 is a real M/AMG, M GmbH (and AMG? not sure there, but I'd guess they also do) do count them in their books as cars they sold.

It's going so far that BMW started calling M cars "M High Performance Cars" to distinguish them just so slightly from "M Performance Cars" (the M340i tier), in a rather obvious shot at trying to lump both of them together.

Now the M Sports package on the lower models is a different thing; you can get that on a 2er Active Tourer if you want. Though at least with the G20 3 series, it means some stiffer suspension (that can be deleted in some markets for the entry models) and sports steering; you can no longer spec those on a non M-Sport car (but could in previous generations I think).
Appreciate 0
      04-10-2021, 06:02 PM   #135
six75LT
First Lieutenant
807
Rep
311
Posts

Drives: 2020 M4 ZCP
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: CT

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbanck View Post
However, there are always two sides to every story. While the buyers don't think an M340i or a C43 is a real M/AMG, M GmbH (and AMG? not sure there, but I'd guess they also do) do count them in their books as cars they sold.

It's going so far that BMW started calling M cars "M High Performance Cars" to distinguish them just so slightly from "M Performance Cars" (the M340i tier), in a rather obvious shot at trying to lump both of them together.

Now the M Sports package on the lower models is a different thing; you can get that on a 2er Active Tourer if you want. Though at least with the G20 3 series, it means some stiffer suspension (that can be deleted in some markets for the entry models) and sports steering; you can no longer spec those on a non M-Sport car (but could in previous generations I think).
im guessing thats a decision made by the accountants and not engineers
Appreciate 1
Vivek.956.00
      04-10-2021, 08:05 PM   #136
mjr24
Major
606
Rep
1,063
Posts

Drives: F90 M5
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Wisconsin/Illinois

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by amrazM View Post
nothing has really been an true motorsport car since the E34 which was built by the M division and most of them still run with 300k miles.

dont let the m cladding get to you its not that serious.
Arguments like this are stupid. No, M Sport cars are not real M cars. However, I love when people say basically no car has been a real M car since "one of those models from like 30 years ago" that the poster probably has never even seen in real life let alone driven.
__________________
2019 M5, 2018 M550I (sold), 2017 Audi Q7, 2014 M6 GC (sold), 2013 CLS550 (sold), 2011 750LI (sold), 2008 M6 Cabrio (sold), 2008 Porsche Cayenne S, 2004 Mercedes SL55 (sold), 2003 Mercedes SL500 (sold), 2000 Mercedes CL500 (sold)

On order: 2021 X7 Alpine White/Cognac
Appreciate 1
jjasonSU168.50
      04-10-2021, 08:44 PM   #137
NorCalAthlete
Major
NorCalAthlete's Avatar
United_States
1691
Rep
1,080
Posts

Drives: Various
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Bay Area, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjr24 View Post
Arguments like this are stupid. No, M Sport cars are not real M cars. However, I love when people say basically no car has been a real M car since "one of those models from like 30 years ago" that the poster probably has never even seen in real life let alone driven.
Mostly agreed.

E46 M3 had ~340 hp and did 0-60 in 5.2s.
M340/M440 have 382 hp and do 0-60 in ~4.3s.

E46 M3 could handle 0.89g of cornering w/ a 49/51 front/rear weight distribution.
M340/M440 can handle 0.91g with a 53/47 weight distribution.

Track times have improved, handling has improved, reliability has improved, interiors have improved, everything.

Welcome to evolution - the definition of "M" is not set in stone nor static, it is merely representative of performance.

I think if we didn't have like 5 tiers of M cars it would be more widely and easily accepted that the M340 / M440 count as M cars, but when you have the M340 > M3 > M3 Competition > M3 CS > M3 GTS it admittedly makes it a bit difficult with all the variants.

If it were simply 330 > M340 > M3 I think it'd be fine as far as the M340 / M440 being publicly accepted as M cars. I get comments from non-BMW owners of "ooooo you got an M car?!" and I just sort of inwardly sigh at this point - too much to try and explain the nuance and differences to nontechnical, non-enthusiast people who are just trying to show some appreciation for a nice car. I just say something like "yeah pretty much, just a different engine...hah...". Might as well lean into it and roll with it.
__________________
Your views on any given subject are the sum of the media that you take in, scaled to the weight of the credibility of the source that provides it, seen through a lens of your own values, goals, and achievements.

Wheel horsepower is just crank horsepower after taxes.
Appreciate 0
      04-11-2021, 12:38 AM   #138
OSee
Captain
800
Rep
697
Posts

Drives: M2 Sold
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Laguna Beach, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalAthlete View Post
Welcome to evolution - the definition of "M" is not set in stone nor static, it is merely representative of performance.
I totally agree. And BMW is being purposely vague and refraining from defining what a "M" car is or isn't.

Professional automobile journalists also contribute heavily to the idea that a m340i (or whatever) aren't real M cars. It's mentioned in the title or first paragraph of every review.
Appreciate 0
      04-11-2021, 02:00 AM   #139
brad850csi
Colonel
989
Rep
2,168
Posts

Drives: 16 F13 M6 Comp
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by OSee View Post
The BMW enthusiast world collectively gasped when BMW announced that M-Sport would become more than just a trim. And on exhale, in chorus, “the M is just for marketing now!”

I’m seeing a lot of defenders in here now. So what’s changed that perception? Any specific car? M240? M550? M340? M440?
I think for me the M badging is OK when there isn't an M car AND when the car is quite different to other models in the range. Such as:

M135i, M140i in the F20 generation as it was the only 6 cylinder in the range, unique body work and so on

M760Li due to the same reasons, just 12 cylinders

I don't like how there is an M340i, then an M3, or M550i, then an M5.
__________________
SCOTT26 "So as an admirer of the M5 and a potential customer of an M5 Touring. I would run naked around the streets of Garching if they were to offer one."
Appreciate 0
      04-11-2021, 04:49 AM   #140
Fined
ghost user
111
Rep
133
Posts

Drives: M2 | 997 GTS
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Düsseldorf

iTrader: (0)

Based on this thread (and others on this forum) BMW owners care way too much about this kinda thing. You buy the car you like, they buy what they like everyone is secure in their manhood/ladyhood and moves on with their lives. Folks seriously going on about the little plastic letters and numbers on the back of someone elses car..? wtf..
Appreciate 1
GuidoK1729.50
      04-11-2021, 05:28 AM   #141
MJBO
Captain
MJBO's Avatar
Australia
422
Rep
604
Posts

Drives: 2011 M3 E90 DCT
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Australia

iTrader: (0)

I feel like M cars started to lose their status when they lost their special engines.

You couldn’t buy a “normal” BMW with an S65, S85, S54, etc.

Today’s M cars have reworked engines from the standard lines, and they’ve dropped the sharper DCT in favour of the too-smooth ZF even in the M3/M4.

Don’t get me wrong, the new cars are crazy fast and capable, but it’s come at the expense of the raw and more rarified driving experience.

My 2020 G01 X3 30i came with M badges all over it, it’s kinda silly.
Appreciate 0
      04-11-2021, 12:07 PM   #142
HighlandPete
Lieutenant General
4688
Rep
13,124
Posts

Drives: BMW F11 535i Touring
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Scotland, Highland Region

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJBO View Post
Don’t get me wrong, the new cars are crazy fast and capable, but it’s come at the expense of the raw and more rarified driving experience.
Aren't we back to the core issue? We (most of us) have moved on. BMW certainly have, along with the rest of the motoring industry.
Appreciate 0
      04-11-2021, 06:14 PM   #143
Sublime00
Lieutenant
579
Rep
472
Posts

Drives: s2000
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Ny

iTrader: (0)

I'm honestly surprised that real M vs fake M or how people refer to their cars is this polarizing lol.

Who gives a fuck?

It's your car, call it whatever you want.
Appreciate 2
chris7194486.50
GuidoK1729.50
      04-11-2021, 06:21 PM   #144
JustinHEMI
Lieutenant
JustinHEMI's Avatar
United_States
563
Rep
505
Posts

Drives: 2020 M2 Comp
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Pittsburgh

iTrader: (1)

I don't particularly care how BMW labels their cars, but I hate upbadging. Eff those people.
__________________
2020 BMW M2 Comp SOLD.
2023 BMW M2 Comp TBD.
Appreciate 2
      04-12-2021, 07:04 AM   #145
gqgambler
Major
gqgambler's Avatar
United_States
433
Rep
1,038
Posts

Drives: Fast & Furious
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Beast from the East

iTrader: (1)

Nope
And this is a silly debate. Most people on the forum will probably agree, but we are the minority. I've owned both M and M Sport cars and have bought each for their purpose and my desires. The M Sport is about looks and impression with some performance improvements, but performance is not their focus. Its a way for BMW to make affordable cars more visually appealing to the masses; i.e. I really like the look of an M car, but can't afford a full M. BMW is not alone as everyone does this on their cars and it works, they sell so why not keep doing it. It does dilute the brand to us enthusiast, but it helps with sales.
__________________
No. Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try.
-Yoda
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2021, 09:31 AM   #146
Dagamus_NM
Dirka Dirka
1636
Rep
1,319
Posts

Drives: 14 Dinan 550i, 10 m3, 91 332iC
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Albuquerque NM

iTrader: (3)

They are all going to be electric soon enough. Then there will really be few differences.
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2021, 09:45 AM   #147
dscabra
Private First Class
dscabra's Avatar
532
Rep
104
Posts

Drives: BMW M550i (G30)
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Colorado

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagamus_NM View Post
They are all going to be electric soon enough. Then there will really be few differences.
Oh, don't be silly! The M electric cars will have 4 x 1.21 jigawatt motors.
Appreciate 1
Dagamus_NM1635.50
      04-13-2021, 05:11 PM   #148
TruthOne
First Lieutenant
TruthOne's Avatar
292
Rep
371
Posts

Drives: 2021 M340i
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Oakland, CA

iTrader: (0)

LOL @ what bothers people. First world problems. So if you buy an M car and don't track it are you a poser?
Appreciate 1
Dagamus_NM1635.50
      04-13-2021, 06:21 PM   #149
xxpanipuri
Captain
546
Rep
997
Posts

Drives: 550i
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Silicon Valley, CA

iTrader: (0)

Its only an m-car if the MOTOR has an S in the engine code...

the m550i has an n63tu motor where the m5 has s63tu motor...

in the 1990 BMW made a BMW 850CSI - which was a bmw motorsport built v12..

where the 840i / 850i were NOT motorsport built motors...
Appreciate 0
      04-13-2021, 08:16 PM   #150
OSee
Captain
800
Rep
697
Posts

Drives: M2 Sold
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Laguna Beach, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by xxpanipuri View Post
Its only an m-car if the MOTOR has an S in the engine code...

the m550i has an n63tu motor where the m5 has s63tu motor...

in the 1990 BMW made a BMW 850CSI - which was a bmw motorsport built v12..

where the 840i / 850i were NOT motorsport built motors...

So what do you make of the OG M2?
Appreciate 1
GuidoK1729.50
      04-13-2021, 08:29 PM   #151
BMWCCA1
BMW Owner Since 1971
517
Rep
437
Posts

Drives: 1964 700 Sport Cabriolet
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Central Virginia

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2013 BMW 128i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by xxpanipuri View Post
Its only an m-car if the MOTOR has an S in the engine code...
The early M635CSi had the M88 engine with more power than the later detuned S38 engine used in the US M6. Same for the original M5 which used the M88 prior to US introduction with the detuned S38. Even the M1 used the M88 engine. So the first M-car was . . . not an M-car?

We used to be told an M-car had to have one throttle per cylinder, batteries in the trunk, and two pairs of exhaust pipes, which left out plenty of "real" M-cars and all M-cars since the advent of turbos on M-cars. It does, however leave the door wide open for my 1964 BMW 700S Convertible which has two cylinders each with its own carburetor and throttle, battery in the rear "trunk" where the engine sits (mid-engine, in reality) and four tailpipes which is double the number of cylinder courtesy of its Abarth exhaust it was delivered with at the factory.


Last edited by BMWCCA1; 04-13-2021 at 08:37 PM..
Appreciate 1
Dagamus_NM1635.50
      04-15-2021, 12:53 PM   #152
Vivek.
Major
956
Rep
1,104
Posts

Drives: 335is coupe, e30 vert
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Los Gatos, California

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWCCA1 View Post
The early M635CSi had the M88 engine with more power than the later detuned S38 engine used in the US M6. Same for the original M5 which used the M88 prior to US introduction with the detuned S38. Even the M1 used the M88 engine. So the first M-car was . . . not an M-car?

We used to be told an M-car had to have one throttle per cylinder, batteries in the trunk, and two pairs of exhaust pipes, which left out plenty of "real" M-cars and all M-cars since the advent of turbos on M-cars. It does, however leave the door wide open for my 1964 BMW 700S Convertible which has two cylinders each with its own carburetor and throttle, battery in the rear "trunk" where the engine sits (mid-engine, in reality) and four tailpipes which is double the number of cylinder courtesy of its Abarth exhaust it was delivered with at the factory.

Fully agreed--so many posters are making claims that don't align with M GMBH history.

What're your thoughts on the "IS" trim level that was offered on the 3-series from e30 thru e92 (except e46?)? To me it seems like the precursor to the current M-performance models like an M340i; back in the E30 days you'd even get a real mechanical LSD on an IS model, something that's today reserved for the "proper" M cars. Basically, a 325is in 1990 would be the equivalent of an M340i today, IMO.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by relative4 View Post
My wife would give me so much head if I did that.
2013 335is Mineral/Coral - DR 6466 - DR Mani - PI - Motiv FF - Dodson Clutches - OEM CF Roof - M3 GTS DCT/LSD/DS/Halfshafts/Suspension/Subframe/Brakes/Chassis Bracing F+R - DEFIV Diff Brace - 437M/R888R
1990 535i - 1992 318i Convertible - 2002 540i/6
Appreciate 1
      04-17-2021, 04:00 PM   #153
chris719
Brigadier General
4487
Rep
4,702
Posts

Drives: '08 M Roadster
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: NJ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MJBO View Post
I feel like M cars started to lose their status when they lost their special engines.

You couldn’t buy a “normal” BMW with an S65, S85, S54, etc.

Today’s M cars have reworked engines from the standard lines, and they’ve dropped the sharper DCT in favour of the too-smooth ZF even in the M3/M4.

Don’t get me wrong, the new cars are crazy fast and capable, but it’s come at the expense of the raw and more rarified driving experience.

My 2020 G01 X3 30i came with M badges all over it, it’s kinda silly.
It's not financially feasible to design a completely different engine any longer. I mean, it's arguable that it wasn't ever a good idea. S54 and S52 are not that far off of the types of changes we see in S55. S85 and S65 may not have been the wisest decisions. S85 is a great engine, but the character IMO never suited a 5 series, and they blow up at an alarming rate. S65 was more on-target for the car but still not exactly the high point of BMW engine reliability. Probably could have used more low-end torque in such a heavy car but cost forced them to chop 2 cylinders off of S85 and run with it. People love the 1M, and if they had gone the turbo route for S65 I think people would have still been happy with the E9x M3.
Appreciate 0
      04-17-2021, 06:01 PM   #154
GuidoK
#buildnotbought
GuidoK's Avatar
1730
Rep
2,577
Posts

Drives: Z4 3.0i ESS TS2+
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Tinkering in the garage

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by OSee View Post
So what do you make of the OG M2?
Or the wonderful and epic 1M for example....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivek. View Post
back in the E30 days you'd even get a real mechanical LSD on an IS model, something that's today reserved for the "proper" M cars.
G29 Z4 m40i also has an LSD.
__________________
Z4 3.0i | ESS TS2+ | Quaife ATB LSD | Brembo/BMW performance BBK front/rear | Schrick FI cams | Schmiedmann headers+cats | Powerflex/strongflex PU bushings | Vibra-technics engine mounts | H&R anti rollbars | KW V3 coilovers | Sachs performance clutch
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:56 PM.




xbimmers
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST