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      04-07-2021, 05:13 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///MPhatic View Post
So it looks like this.

240 = standard road car.
M240 = standard road car with increased performance by virtue of higher performance M parts.
M2 = M-Car

A real M-Car turns out to be ANY collection of M bits that BMW decides makes it an M-Car, regardless of what anyone else says, since they invented it.
240 = standard road car.

I'd add... when we see "M-Sport", it's just a trim level.
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      04-07-2021, 05:57 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
240 = standard road car.

I'd add... when we see "M-Sport", it's just a trim level.
Depends what you mean by standard road car. the Mxxx cars sit between the full fat M cars and the rest of the range which may have the M-Sport trim.

I think they hold their own place, particularly as in average conditions they can outpace the comparable M cars to 60mph (i.e. non-competition or 5 / 8 series variants which are well over £100k).
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      04-07-2021, 06:15 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srbs73 View Post
Depends what you mean by standard road car. the Mxxx cars sit between the full fat M cars and the rest of the range which may have the M-Sport trim..
I'm thinking something like a 'standard' F30 340i M-Sport. A different car altogether than a G20 M340i.

The M-sort trim is also market influenced. Here in the UK, for example, the F30 340i was only available in M-Sport trim. Many engine levels are available in different trims. Same key 'mechanicals', can be optioned. Like having an SE model with M-sport suspension and sport seats. Therefore a very similar drive in the SE, (identical performance) to the M-sport trim level.

I view cars like the current M340i as an "M-Lite".
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      04-07-2021, 07:11 AM   #114
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The real deal will always be a complete sports car package.
Many manufacturers sprinkle their sports car model appeal down to other models. Some with real performance upgrades and some are just cosmetic.

M-Sport
S-Line
R-Design
F-Sport
AMG Line
etc.
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      04-07-2021, 07:35 AM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
240 = standard road car.

I'd add... when we see "M-Sport", it's just a trim level.
Don't the M-Sport cars have the same brakes as the OG M2? Much stronger than what's needed for the road I think. But as to the rest of the bits, I can't speak to, as I don't now what they are. But if the bits actually add performance, then M-Sport actually means something.

I think back to when, with Honda, "Si" was just trim (seats, badges, etc), and it was pretty sad. Gone are those days, thankfully.
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      04-07-2021, 08:20 AM   #116
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I've always felt a real ///M car is a car with a real M engine. M engines to me are only the ones that can make 100hp/Litre naturally! I own a F82 M4 now but miss my E46 M3 with that free spirited S54 engine. Turbo is nice and all for that initial torque and fuel efficiency but it's missing the soul that the S54 had.
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      04-07-2021, 08:57 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///MPhatic View Post
Don't the M-Sport cars have the same brakes as the OG M2? Much stronger than what's needed for the road I think. But as to the rest of the bits, I can't speak to, as I don't now what they are. But if the bits actually add performance, then M-Sport actually means something.
It is difficult to keep up with some of the changes and standard fit/options across the models/years.

I know in the UK some M-Sport models, in a particular line-up, would have options for upgraded brakes, or packages with upgrades. Some originally optioned items can become standard fitment over time.

What also adds some confusion, is the Mxxx models are often referred to by BMW as BMW M Performance (models) Automobiles.

Then we have the M Performance Parts catalogues, allowing a 'mix and match' array of options, which can be added to standard cars.

No wonder users can get so up tight about their specific car, once we move away from the obvious 'full fat' M-cars.
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      04-07-2021, 09:20 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
No wonder users can get so up tight about their specific car, once we move away from the obvious 'full fat' M-cars.
It's inclusion, after all. BMW is as much of a performance brand as it is a luxury brand to many, so if they can't quite afford the M, these little bits help them feel included. I get it. But yeah, I wish there was either M, or not-M.
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      04-07-2021, 09:23 AM   #119
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Sadly was headed back to work yesterday from lunch, on I-95 S between McNab & Commercial in Fort Lauderdale. Passed a black F10 535i w/black wheels and blacked out badges, with a really sweet ///M decal on the base of the trunk, just to the left of the passenger side tail light.

Made me shake my head in disgust.
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      04-07-2021, 09:33 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///MPhatic View Post
Don't the M-Sport cars have the same brakes as the OG M2? Much stronger than what's needed for the road I think. But as to the rest of the bits, I can't speak to, as I don't now what they are. But if the bits actually add performance, then M-Sport actually means something.

I think back to when, with Honda, "Si" was just trim (seats, badges, etc), and it was pretty sad. Gone are those days, thankfully.
Again, please excuse my general ignorance when it comes to the overall BMW lineage. I've owned just three BMWs:

2012 F30 (328i with very minimal options)
2015 F30 (328i) Sport Line (heavily optioned)
2018 G30 (M550i) Fully optioned

My understanding of what an M-Sport is, is that it's a package that can be added to most cars that is primarily an appearance package. Yes, it includes the bigger brakes, but other than that, no real performance upgrades.

My 2015 Sport Line F30 did not have the M-Sport package, but rather Sport brakes and a Sport mode for the transmission. It had a bit thicker steering wheel than my first car and some nice Sport Line wheels.

My 2018 M550i is referred to as an M-Performance car, which has all the M-Sport appearance goodies along with some added performance (the twin-turbo 4.4L V8 being the most significant of those).

Having come from a long stretch of Mercedes cars, I get the sensitivity of the owners of the top tier badges like M and AMG. My last Mercedes was an SL-500 with "AMG package". It was NOT an AMG car, but simply had a lot of appearance goodies from the AMG cars. It did not have any AMG badges anywhere on the car. This, is a distinction I find interesting between Mercedes and BMW. Mercedes doesn't use the AMG badges except on the AMG cars, whereas BMW is freely using the M on all sorts of stuff. It's no wonder that many BMW owners can't distinguish the products.

I'm sure the M5 owners in 2018 were livid when the 2018 M550i was faster than the M5 that year.

True M car owners should just relax and know that their cars are incredible racing machines. You have the opportunity to embarrass the "inferior" M-labeled cars at every stop light.
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      04-07-2021, 10:45 AM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///MPhatic View Post
It's inclusion, after all. BMW is as much of a performance brand as it is a luxury brand to many, so if they can't quite afford the M, these little bits help them feel included. I get it. But yeah, I wish there was either M, or not-M.
Not just about cost. I wanted a xDrive Touring so no option yet. I'll look at the M3 Touring when it's out next year and will consider as long as the comfort adaptive isn't too stiff!
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      04-07-2021, 11:05 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dscabra View Post
Again, please excuse my general ignorance when it comes to the overall BMW lineage. I've owned just three BMWs:
You've got me beat, so I'd say your word is better than mine on the subject for sure.
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      04-07-2021, 11:44 AM   #123
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I've always thought ///M was for manual
So my car has a manual so M car right.......
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      04-07-2021, 12:06 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dscabra View Post
... This, is a distinction I find interesting between Mercedes and BMW. Mercedes doesn't use the AMG badges except on the AMG cars, whereas BMW is freely using the M on all sorts of stuff. It's no wonder that many BMW owners can't distinguish the products.
Is that the case in your market? In the UK we get the AMG Line, a bit like using the M-Sport trim & options.

https://www.mercedes-benzsouthwest.c...he-difference/
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      04-07-2021, 12:19 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacoma View Post

For cars, the only true M models start with the letter M followed by a number, like M2, M3, M4, M5, M8. That's it.
The 1M being the exception I presume
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      04-07-2021, 12:21 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
Is that the case in your market? In the UK we get the AMG Line, a bit like using the M-Sport trim & options.

https://www.mercedes-benzsouthwest.c...he-difference/
It's been a few years since I was keeping track of the MB cars, so it may very well be that they are following the same practices globally that you are seeing.

Much like the M purists, to me an AMG means that the engine is hand-built by one person. In the end, it's not about the badge, but what the badge represents that matters.
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      04-07-2021, 12:28 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOW4LYF View Post
How about E31 850CSI or E24 M635CSI ??? Not a real M car?
Absolutely

There is also an E12 5 series M535i (m90 engine) that belongs in the list. As it dates back all the way to 1980

And imho the bmw 2002 turbo and E9 CSL also belong in that list as the granddaddys
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      04-07-2021, 01:27 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srbs73 View Post
I think they hold their own place, particularly as in average conditions they can outpace the comparable M cars to 60mph
That misses the entire point of an M car. It's not for average conditions, it's for extraordinary conditions. Going fast to 60 is also not extraordinary. You can engineer almost any car to go fast to 60. All you need is power and traction. Where the extraordinary engineering happens is handling dynamics and consistency lap after lap after lap after lap. No matter how hard you push your car on the street, you will not even get 75% of the abuse these cars take on the track. It's either too unsafe, or doesn't require the driver to skirt the edge for tenths of a second. This is why even less powerful cars with slower 0-60 times can pass other more powerful cars. People keep thinking a fast 0-60 time makes their car a sports car until they get to the track and get embarassed by Miatas.

So yes, I think they hold their own place... on the street. With some modifications they can hold their place on the track as well, but then you are sacrificing the daily driveability that the car excels and still with compromises compared to it's M counterpart.
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      04-07-2021, 02:56 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
That misses the entire point of an M car. It's not for average conditions, it's for extraordinary conditions. Going fast to 60 is also not extraordinary. You can engineer almost any car to go fast to 60. All you need is power and traction. Where the extraordinary engineering happens is handling dynamics and consistency lap after lap after lap after lap. No matter how hard you push your car on the street, you will not even get 75% of the abuse these cars take on the track. It's either too unsafe, or doesn't require the driver to skirt the edge for tenths of a second. This is why even less powerful cars with slower 0-60 times can pass other more powerful cars. People keep thinking a fast 0-60 time makes their car a sports car until they get to the track and get embarassed by Miatas.

So yes, I think they hold their own place... on the street. With some modifications they can hold their place on the track as well, but then you are sacrificing the daily driveability that the car excels and still with compromises compared to it's M counterpart.
Not disagreeing. As someone else said, they sit in a spot in between M cars and the rest of the range. And for me, who will never take my own car on a track, in many ways it’s the most sensible option. An M car restricted to under 70mph in normal conditions doesn’t really get the opportunity to show its strengths.
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      04-07-2021, 04:35 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srbs73 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
That misses the entire point of an M car. It's not for average conditions, it's for extraordinary conditions. Going fast to 60 is also not extraordinary. You can engineer almost any car to go fast to 60. All you need is power and traction. Where the extraordinary engineering happens is handling dynamics and consistency lap after lap after lap after lap. No matter how hard you push your car on the street, you will not even get 75% of the abuse these cars take on the track. It's either too unsafe, or doesn't require the driver to skirt the edge for tenths of a second. This is why even less powerful cars with slower 0-60 times can pass other more powerful cars. People keep thinking a fast 0-60 time makes their car a sports car until they get to the track and get embarassed by Miatas.

So yes, I think they hold their own place... on the street. With some modifications they can hold their place on the track as well, but then you are sacrificing the daily driveability that the car excels and still with compromises compared to it's M counterpart.
Not disagreeing. As someone else said, they sit in a spot in between M cars and the rest of the range. And for me, who will never take my own car on a track, in many ways it’s the most sensible option. An M car restricted to under 70mph in normal conditions doesn’t really get the opportunity to show its strengths.
Agreed. Different driver, different needs. What's somewhat annoying is when a non-M driver says their car is "better" an M car on the street because it's just as fast or faster to 60 but is more comfortable for daily driving. It ignores the fact that other drivers have more demanding needs. At sub 4 seconds for both M cars and M performance cars, do we really care who wins a 0-60 when, like you said, we don't even really have that opportunity to show it's strengths on public roads.

In the end though, it just seems to be about bragging rights for something they can't really use unless they are breaking the law. It just seems a bit meaningless to me.
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      04-10-2021, 12:24 PM   #131
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The BMW enthusiast world collectively gasped when BMW announced that M-Sport would become more than just a trim. And on exhale, in chorus, “the M is just for marketing now!”

I’m seeing a lot of defenders in here now. So what’s changed that perception? Any specific car? M240? M550? M340? M440?
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      04-10-2021, 12:36 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by para38super View Post
I would never remove them. I also own Challenger. Would I remove RT or SRT because I don't have the hellcat engine, definitely not. Dodge labels them depending on the specs. Nobody complains about a Durango having the badge. I guess Dodge guys are not as uptight about a badge.
Not the same thing.

If Dodge started a Hellcat sports trim and started slapping the Hellcat badge all over every Dodge model with 20 inch wheels and a factory tuned 6 cylinder the “Dodge guys” with ‘real’ Hellcats would be up in arms.

American car buyers are some of the biggest badge worshippers on the planet. The fact that you call them “Dodge guys” is very revealing.

Last edited by OSee; 04-10-2021 at 12:41 PM..
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