[Weather Man]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

So much for debating, listening, and compromise.

Since when has the party that is ramming EV's and all things Green down our throats EVER done any debating, listening or compromise? The people in the D party vote as a monolithic block for the PARTY, not the people they represent. And you're shocked at the pushback,

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

I consider most "Hybrids" the worst of both worlds. We can do so much better. When battery technology gets away from dangerous and environmentally damaging batteries and systems are developed that run the ICE in conjunction with the EV power we may be getting somewhere. When this combination allows small displacement turbos combined with EV's to have the range of a ICE and the horse power and torque of a far greater displacement ICE I might be a buyer. As long as the company shares my political views.

I think series hybrids are the answer. Much smaller batteries. But the engine has to be reimagined using different materials, different cylinder designs and different architecture. Bump ICE to 60% or higher efficiency, driving a generator and using a battery for surge and regen braking. That's the EV I'll buy.

[Weather Man]

Interesting article stating used EV values are experiencing such rapid devaluation from new because people view them the same as a used laptop.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news...650ee662&ei=14

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Weather Man

Interesting article stating used EV values are experiencing such rapid devaluation from new because people view them the same as a used laptop.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news...650ee662&ei=14

Nice and shiny when EV's are newly bought or more likely leased then as time passes they are handed back and are looked at as something with a very limited time span with unwittingly adding to their climate crises of being dumped and scrapped of their own EV making.

[Leucosticte]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Why plug-in hybrids consume (much) more fuel than expected
A recent study published by the European Commission reports that plug-in hybrid cars are actually considerably more polluting than carmakers claim. On average, they produce around 3.5 times the emissions that they theoretically should, with drivers using more fuel than initially estimated.
To explain this difference, the report points out that drivers don't typically use these hybrids in electric mode as often as they could, whereas in testing, the automakers use them in an optimized way. Owners of these vehicles make much more medium- to long-distance journeys on secondary or trunk roads, where the combustion engine is put to work, rather than at low speeds in town, where the electric motor takes over.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news...9c1d365a&ei=19

Lugging around 800lbs of batteries increases fuel consumption. Who Knew?

My uncles plug in hybrid volvo gets about 22 mpg. Which ends up being only about 2 more mpg than my E92 which is crazy to me considering that I'm not a conservative driver by any means.

[Car-Addicted]

Police caught up with a stolen Tesla after it ran out of battery during a car chase
The Tesla belonged to Fox 11 anchor and reporter Susan Hirasuna, who told the outlet the car disappeared after she parked it near the United Theater in downtown Los Angeles.
Hirasuna said she discovered the Tesla had been stolen after she left a nearby concert on Thursday evening.
The stolen car was fortunately low on charge when it was taken, with Hirasuna's Tesla app estimating that the EV's battery was down to just 15 miles of range, the report said.
The Los Angeles Police Department had already attempted to stop the car after it was reported for reckless driving before she had even had a chance to file a report.
Despite considering halting the vehicle with a Precision Immobilization Technique (PIT) maneuver, where officers try and force a vehicle to turn 180 degrees, causing it to stall and stop, police instead decided to follow it until it ran out of power, the report said.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news...4e2ec2a17&ei=6

So when all the police cars switch to EV's you just have to run around until they run out of juice.

[Car-Addicted]

On a related observation, If people buying SUV's who will never see a dirt road would switch to the 2wd estate/wagon with same engine and load capacity they would save about 20% on fuel consumption but it's really not about the environment is it.

[Weather Man]

Tesla sitting on serious new inventory. Dealers taking Tesla on trade better beware.

Electric vehicle stocks slide after Tesla deliveries stunner
Apr. 02, 2024 9:56 AM ETTesla, Inc. (TSLA) StockF, GM, TM, WKHS, MVST, NKLA, NIO, HYLN, GOEV, RIVN, XPEV, LAZR, QS, HYZN, LCID, PSNY, VFS, ALLGBy: Clark Schultz, SA News Editor

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Stock Market Crash Chart
solarseven

Electric vehicle stocks went into reverse in early trading on Tuesday after Tesla (NASDAQ:TSLA) missed already beaten-down estimates with its Q1 production and deliveries report.

The electric vehicle giant announced on Tuesday that it delivered 386,810 vehicles in Q1 and produced 433,371 vehicles. The deliveries tally missed the consensus estimate that had already been slashed significantly over the last three weeks. Model 3/Y production was 412,376 units vs. 439,194 consensus. By comparison, Tesla delivered a total of 484,507 vehicles in Q4 and delivered 422,875 a year ago in Q1.

On Wall Street, Wedbush Securities analyst Dan Ives did not pull any punches in characterizing the quarter. "While we were anticipating a bad 1Q, this was an unmitigated disaster 1Q that is hard to explain away," he noted.

Ives unleashed: "We view this as a seminal moment in the Tesla story for Musk to either turn this around and reverse the black eye 1Q performance. Otherwise, some darker days could clearly be ahead that could disrupt the long-term Tesla narrative. While we remain bullish on the long term story given the prospects for growth and EV/FSD over the coming quarters, this was a train wreck into a brick wall quarter for Musk & Co. with our estimate that China was down at least 3% YoY."

Barclays also created some ripples in the EV sector after downgrading Nio (NIO) to an Underweight rating due to weak sales trends. "With limited new product launches in the pipeline planned for the rest of 2024, we see significant risks for NIO's ability to meet consensus estimates for the reminder of the year," warned analyst Jiong Shao. Barclays cut revenue estimates on Nio (NIO) for Q1, 2024, and 2025.

[Car-Addicted]

Assessment of Run-Off Waters Resulting from Lithium-Ion Battery Fire-Fighting Operations
31 March 2024
As the use of Li-ion batteries is spreading, incidents in large energy storage systems (stationary storage containers, etc.) or in large-scale cell and battery storages (warehouses, recyclers, etc.), often leading to fire, are occurring on a regular basis. Water remains one of the most efficient fire extinguishing agents for tackling such battery incidents, and large quantities are usually necessary. Since batteries contain various potentially harmful components (metals and their oxides or salts, solvents, etc.) and thermal-runaway-induced battery incidents are accompanied by complex and potentially multistage fume emissions (containing both gas and particles), the potential impact of fire run-off waters on the environment should be considered and assessed carefully. The tests presented in this paper focus on analyzing the composition of run-off waters used to spray NMC Li-ion modules under thermal runaway. It highlights that waters used for firefighting are susceptible to containing many metals, including Ni, Mn, Co, Li and Al, mixed with other carbonaceous species (soot, tarballs) and sometimes undecomposed solvents used in the electrolyte. Extrapolation of pollutant concentrations compared with PNEC values showed that, for large-scale incidents, run-off water could be potentially hazardous to the environment.
The tests presented in this paper highlight that waters used for firefighting on NMC Li-ion batteries are susceptible to containing many metals, including Ni, Mn, Co, Li and Al. Those metals are mixed with other carbonaceous species (soots, tarballs). It is also important to note that particles present in the water can be nanometric or in the form of nanostructured clusters. In addition to the solid contaminants, liquid compounds can be present, especially organic carbonates coming from the electrolyte (EC and EMC in this case) and also gaseous species such as PAH. A comparison with PNEC values showed that this water could be potentially hazardous to the environment, depending on the actual situation encountered in the case of thermal runaway propagation with a Li-ion battery-based system.
These tests also make it possible to identify some trends concerning the reaction scenario. By comparing the two extinguishing operations on the prismatic cells, one can see that when the fire is developed, the water is much more concentrated in PAH and cathode metals (Ni, Mn, Co). On the other hand, the concentrations of elements coming from the liquid electrolyte (typically Li, P, F), more easily accessible, are present in equivalent quantities.
https://www.mdpi.com/2313-0105/10/4/118#

Makes you want to get back to the good old fashion car fire.

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Assessment of Run-Off Waters Resulting from Lithium-Ion Battery Fire-Fighting Operations
31 March 2024
As the use of Li-ion batteries is spreading, incidents in large energy storage systems (stationary storage containers, etc.) or in large-scale cell and battery storages (warehouses, recyclers, etc.), often leading to fire, are occurring on a regular basis. Water remains one of the most efficient fire extinguishing agents for tackling such battery incidents, and large quantities are usually necessary. Since batteries contain various potentially harmful components (metals and their oxides or salts, solvents, etc.) and thermal-runaway-induced battery incidents are accompanied by complex and potentially multistage fume emissions (containing both gas and particles), the potential impact of fire run-off waters on the environment should be considered and assessed carefully. The tests presented in this paper focus on analyzing the composition of run-off waters used to spray NMC Li-ion modules under thermal runaway. It highlights that waters used for firefighting are susceptible to containing many metals, including Ni, Mn, Co, Li and Al, mixed with other carbonaceous species (soot, tarballs) and sometimes undecomposed solvents used in the electrolyte. Extrapolation of pollutant concentrations compared with PNEC values showed that, for large-scale incidents, run-off water could be potentially hazardous to the environment.
The tests presented in this paper highlight that waters used for firefighting on NMC Li-ion batteries are susceptible to containing many metals, including Ni, Mn, Co, Li and Al. Those metals are mixed with other carbonaceous species (soots, tarballs). It is also important to note that particles present in the water can be nanometric or in the form of nanostructured clusters. In addition to the solid contaminants, liquid compounds can be present, especially organic carbonates coming from the electrolyte (EC and EMC in this case) and also gaseous species such as PAH. A comparison with PNEC values showed that this water could be potentially hazardous to the environment, depending on the actual situation encountered in the case of thermal runaway propagation with a Li-ion battery-based system.
These tests also make it possible to identify some trends concerning the reaction scenario. By comparing the two extinguishing operations on the prismatic cells, one can see that when the fire is developed, the water is much more concentrated in PAH and cathode metals (Ni, Mn, Co). On the other hand, the concentrations of elements coming from the liquid electrolyte (typically Li, P, F), more easily accessible, are present in equivalent quantities.
https://www.mdpi.com/2313-0105/10/4/118#

Makes you want to get back to the good old fashion car fire.

The easy answer is to not use massive amounts of water for most EV fires. The EV blanket method will be better much of the time. Modern problems require modern solutions.

[Weather Man]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Assessment of Run-Off Waters Resulting from Lithium-Ion Battery Fire-Fighting Operations
31 March 2024
As the use of Li-ion batteries is spreading, incidents in large energy storage systems (stationary storage containers, etc.) or in large-scale cell and battery storages (warehouses, recyclers, etc.), often leading to fire, are occurring on a regular basis. Water remains one of the most efficient fire extinguishing agents for tackling such battery incidents, and large quantities are usually necessary. Since batteries contain various potentially harmful components (metals and their oxides or salts, solvents, etc.) and thermal-runaway-induced battery incidents are accompanied by complex and potentially multistage fume emissions (containing both gas and particles), the potential impact of fire run-off waters on the environment should be considered and assessed carefully. The tests presented in this paper focus on analyzing the composition of run-off waters used to spray NMC Li-ion modules under thermal runaway. It highlights that waters used for firefighting are susceptible to containing many metals, including Ni, Mn, Co, Li and Al, mixed with other carbonaceous species (soot, tarballs) and sometimes undecomposed solvents used in the electrolyte. Extrapolation of pollutant concentrations compared with PNEC values showed that, for large-scale incidents, run-off water could be potentially hazardous to the environment.
The tests presented in this paper highlight that waters used for firefighting on NMC Li-ion batteries are susceptible to containing many metals, including Ni, Mn, Co, Li and Al. Those metals are mixed with other carbonaceous species (soots, tarballs). It is also important to note that particles present in the water can be nanometric or in the form of nanostructured clusters. In addition to the solid contaminants, liquid compounds can be present, especially organic carbonates coming from the electrolyte (EC and EMC in this case) and also gaseous species such as PAH. A comparison with PNEC values showed that this water could be potentially hazardous to the environment, depending on the actual situation encountered in the case of thermal runaway propagation with a Li-ion battery-based system.
These tests also make it possible to identify some trends concerning the reaction scenario. By comparing the two extinguishing operations on the prismatic cells, one can see that when the fire is developed, the water is much more concentrated in PAH and cathode metals (Ni, Mn, Co). On the other hand, the concentrations of elements coming from the liquid electrolyte (typically Li, P, F), more easily accessible, are present in equivalent quantities.
https://www.mdpi.com/2313-0105/10/4/118#

Makes you want to get back to the good old fashion car fire.

Now imagine that shit covering the inside of your house after your EV self immolates in the garage.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Assessment of Run-Off Waters Resulting from Lithium-Ion Battery Fire-Fighting Operations
31 March 2024
As the use of Li-ion batteries is spreading, incidents in large energy storage systems (stationary storage containers, etc.) or in large-scale cell and battery storages (warehouses, recyclers, etc.), often leading to fire, are occurring on a regular basis. Water remains one of the most efficient fire extinguishing agents for tackling such battery incidents, and large quantities are usually necessary. Since batteries contain various potentially harmful components (metals and their oxides or salts, solvents, etc.) and thermal-runaway-induced battery incidents are accompanied by complex and potentially multistage fume emissions (containing both gas and particles), the potential impact of fire run-off waters on the environment should be considered and assessed carefully. The tests presented in this paper focus on analyzing the composition of run-off waters used to spray NMC Li-ion modules under thermal runaway. It highlights that waters used for firefighting are susceptible to containing many metals, including Ni, Mn, Co, Li and Al, mixed with other carbonaceous species (soot, tarballs) and sometimes undecomposed solvents used in the electrolyte. Extrapolation of pollutant concentrations compared with PNEC values showed that, for large-scale incidents, run-off water could be potentially hazardous to the environment.
The tests presented in this paper highlight that waters used for firefighting on NMC Li-ion batteries are susceptible to containing many metals, including Ni, Mn, Co, Li and Al. Those metals are mixed with other carbonaceous species (soots, tarballs). It is also important to note that particles present in the water can be nanometric or in the form of nanostructured clusters. In addition to the solid contaminants, liquid compounds can be present, especially organic carbonates coming from the electrolyte (EC and EMC in this case) and also gaseous species such as PAH. A comparison with PNEC values showed that this water could be potentially hazardous to the environment, depending on the actual situation encountered in the case of thermal runaway propagation with a Li-ion battery-based system.
These tests also make it possible to identify some trends concerning the reaction scenario. By comparing the two extinguishing operations on the prismatic cells, one can see that when the fire is developed, the water is much more concentrated in PAH and cathode metals (Ni, Mn, Co). On the other hand, the concentrations of elements coming from the liquid electrolyte (typically Li, P, F), more easily accessible, are present in equivalent quantities.
https://www.mdpi.com/2313-0105/10/4/118#

Makes you want to get back to the good old fashion car fire.

So, to the layman this water used to douse an EV fire travels down drains back into the water system to be filtered to be used again speaking very openly and these water board filteration systems are questionable to remove the poison contamination from fire ravaged EV batteries.

[Weather Man]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

So, to the layman this water used to douse an EV fire travels down drains back into the water system to be filtered to be used again speaking very openly and these water board filteration systems are questionable to remove the poison contamination from fire ravaged EV batteries.

Or it ends up in the yard where your kids play.

[gblansten]

My guess is that the runoff from EV fires will become a leading cause of death in industrialized societies. Since most EVs will catch fire we are talking about millions of cars immolating and only large amounts of water will be used to quench though conflagrations. You could also see droughts occurring from this as well.

Once society collapses back into a more agrarian, rural and decentralized life then we can try to rebuild again.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by gblansten

The easy answer is to not use massive amounts of water for most EV fires. The EV blanket method will be better much of the time. Modern problems require modern solutions.

Maybe like a beaker with 100ml of water?
When it comes to ground water contamination measurements are in part per million.
Reaction of Lithium and Water

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Maybe like a beaker with 100ml of water?
When it comes to ground water contamination measurements are in part per million.
Reaction of Lithium and Water

I see a candle. I haven't clicked on the video yet. I need reassurance this isn't a stealth Elton John video.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by gblansten

Once society collapses back into a more agrarian, rural and decentralized life then we can try to rebuild again.

More likely the green idiots will kill us by removing CO2
The Eocene-Oligocene extinction event was the result of low CO2 levels.
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature17423

[Weather Man]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Maybe like a beaker with 100ml of water?
When it comes to ground water contamination measurements are in part per million.
Reaction of Lithium and Water

He thinks EV fires happen in isolation, good grief.

[M5Rick]

This proves it is not a freak occurrence, Pres Bozo turns away.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ev...aV-JSwzzA,st:0

[Weather Man]

Cold one in Canada, husband afraid for wife, follows and stays with her while she charges. That was efficient. Is there a dumber car to own than an EV where it gets life threatening cold?

[Ugly Kar]

Originally Posted by Weather Man

Since when has the party that is ramming EV's and all things Green down our throats EVER done any debating, listening or compromise? The people in the D party vote as a monolithic block for the PARTY, not the people they represent. And you're shocked at the pushback,

Why should they have to listen or compromise? They are perfect and know everything and only stupid people don't do as they dictate. Just ask them and they will tell you.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Would-be Tesla buyers snub company as Musk's reputation dips
Mon, Apr 1, 2024
Caliber's "consideration score" for Tesla, provided exclusively to Reuters, fell to 31% in February, less than half its high of 70% in November 2021 when it started tracking consumer interest in the brand.
Tesla's consideration score fell 8 percentage points from January alone even as Caliber's scores for Mercedes, BMW and Audi, which produce gas as well as EV models, inched up during that same period, reaching 44-47%.
Reuters spoke to five marketing, polling and car experts who said controversies surrounding Musk's increasingly right-wing politics and public statements are weighing on Tesla's brand and demand.
"It is hard enough to win sales without getting into politics," said Tim Calkins, a marketing professor at Northwestern University's Kellogg School of Management.
Brand valuation consultancy Brand Finance found Tesla's reputation fell in 2023 in the United States, the Netherlands, France, United Kingdom, and Australia. Tesla's reputation did not suffer in China, where access to news on the company and its CEO may have been limited, and Germany.
Kat Beyer, a climate activist in Wisconsin, said she wanted to avoid Tesla because of Musk's support for Republicans, but wound up buying a Model Y last year because of a lack of EVs with reliable charging infrastructure.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla...100751111.html

So it really is about politics when it comes to one particular group.
I guess since Musk is now a right-wing zellot I should run right out and buy a Tesla. When Pigs fly.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Politics gets intertwined into everything now unfortunately. The loudest and craziest speaking person in the room tends to get the attention. This politics today. Anger and NO COMPROMISING. It's one party or no party. Nothing in the middle.

It's Musk's own damn fault for going off the deep end in the last 5 years. Tesla's were largely purchased by more liberal and environmentally conscious individuals. Prior to around 2015, Musk was generally mum about political stuff. Then Musk got upset with California on many issues which I think he had some valid arguments. After that though, something snapped in him. He became very vocal, politicial, spewing conspiracy theories, Twitter, etc. I think he's also a product of all the fame and thinks that given his fame, he has the right answer and solution for everything. It's a common issue with wealthy and famous people. Bezos, Gates, and the like are similar. Now Musk has aligned himself with the Right, who largely oppose much in the way EVs and environmental matters and he's now alienated a large portion of his buyers/followers. He certainly doesn't help given that EV sales are tanking for other reasons.

Sometimes it's just better to keep your mouth shut when it comes to politics, especially when you're famous and are running a business. So many CEOs and the like have been destroyed in the last 5 years because they became way too vocal politically. Michael Lindell (My Pillow CEO) may take the win though