[Weather Man]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

The automotive aftermarket is alive and well and bigger than ever. Yes, there are noise ordinances and emissions requirements to meet in order to drive the car on a public street, but loud exhausts and running no cats results in minimal power gains. Even road courses have noise requirements.

What exactly do you feel is being taken away by these Green Thugs other the general ease right now to break the law by installing some tune to defeat 02 sensors or run a smelly and highly polluting catless downpipe?

You're wrong, the little shops that cater to performance are dropping like flies. When the EPA couldn't get to the offshore diesel tuners, they picked a few shops and made examples out of them. They did the same thing in the Mustang world. The EPA position is that you can change wheels on your car and that's it. That position was NEVER in any legislation, it was invented by bureaucratic "interpretation".

[chris719]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Talk about some left wing conspiracy crap.

The issue is, as was previously stated, the numbers of people modifying their cars are tiny, and the EPA can't just say "we cleaned sup the air, good job boys", they're going after more and more unrealistic targets to justify their continued existence (and push a financially beneficial to some agenda of EVs).

This isn't about air pollution. If it was, as I said before, we would be looking at ways to actually make a sizeable impact, like putting tariffs on goods from countries that thrive by not following the incredibly strict rules we have.

The number of catless cars on the road is probably in the 10s of thousands nationwide. There's some 280M cars and trucks on the road in the US. Going after that tiny percentage of people isn't going to make ANY difference in pollution. But since they're small, and government is big, they're an easy target. Far easier than forcing airlines to be clean. Far easier than forcing trans oceanic shipping to be clean. Far easier than forcing 3rd world countries to be clean.

Are they going after soft targets? Yes, because accomplishing their real mission is near impossible when they are going up against industry more powerful than they are and with deeper pockets. I agree that this is making a mountain out of a molehill, but completely disagree that the problem is overreach. They are simply doing what they are able to do.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

A lot more goes into these processes than you know. I have colleagues that work on committees and panels to help create environmental legislation. The process is lengthy and very detailed. Massive amounts of information and data is considered.

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Don't believe everything you read on the internet or is being spewed by some hard, right-leaning yahoo.

You mean like this?
Particulate Matter (PM) Air Quality Standards
Based on the Environmental Protection Agency's (EPA's) reconsideration of the air quality criteria and the national ambient air quality standards (NAAQS) for particulate matter (PM), the EPA is revising the primary annual PM2.5 standard by lowering the level from 12.0 µg/m3 to 9.0 µg/m3. The Agency is retaining the current primary 24-hour PM2.5 standard and the primary 24-hour PM10 standard. The Agency also is not changing the secondary 24-hour PM2.5 standard, secondary annual PM2.5 standard, and secondary 24-hour PM10.

Half of US states join GOP lawsuits challenging new EPA rule on deadly soot pollution
84 percent of PM2.5 is from so-called “non-point” sources, meaning the contaminants are more challenging to control. Smoke from wildfires and common dust (including that arising from roads, construction, and agricultural activity) comprise 43% and 16% of all PM2.5 emissions, respectively. Only 16% of PM
emissions come from “point” sources, such as power plants and industrial sources.9 Further, the ambient levels of PM in many counties are affected by emissions originating outside the county itself since.
Emissions from non-point sources like wildfires are particularly susceptible to being transported extremely
long distances by the prevailing winds. Even PM originating in other countries, such as China, can help
drive a county into nonattainment status.10
* Due to winds, counties in highly forested states, like California, can be significantly impacted by
wildfire PM, such as smoke, from upwind counties.11 However, while a particular county may not be
responsible for such smoke, it would still suffer the economic consequences were it to be deemed to be in nonattainment as a result.
* In the summer of 2023, Canada suffered from 900 wildfires. For weeks, the smoke from these fires was transported to the United States, affecting at least 32 states.12 This foreign contribution of PM could well affect a given county’s attainment status.
With burdensome regulatory disincentives, counties, and states lose out on manufacturing, construction, and other job-creating opportunities. If the unreasonable PM2.5 standards proposed by
the Biden administration are ultimately finalized, it seems inevitable that more companies will look to offshore their projects.
https://republicanpolicy.house.gov/s...rief-final.pdf

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by x622

Installing a turbocharger or other FI/power adder can be considered emissions defeat/tampering : see CARB

Installing non CARB approved parts

I'd say in general CARB is the EPAs extension. Fantastic example of overzealous government overreach.

CARB is California, not EPA. States can voluntarily elect to follow CARB. So far, 15 states have implemented CARB into their laws.

There are CARB approved parts and there are parts that meet the EPA Tampering Policy. There are PLENTY of companies out there that sell CARB and EPA compliant parts including tuning devices that add power, aftermarket turbos and superchargers, etc. You simply have to demonstrate and document compliance. Many reputable companies have and are doing that.

Yeah, it's harder to start an aftermarket performance parts company without a lot of cash because of CARB, EPA, CAA, etc. requirements, but that pretty much goes for any business that makes auto parts or anything for that matter that must meet industry or regulatory standards.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

You mean like this?
Particulate Matter (PM) Air Quality Standards
Based on the Environmental Protection Agency's (EPA's) reconsideration of the air quality criteria and the national ambient air quality standards (NAAQS) for particulate matter (PM), the EPA is revising the primary annual PM2.5 standard by lowering the level from 12.0 µg/m3 to 9.0 µg/m3. The Agency is retaining the current primary 24-hour PM2.5 standard and the primary 24-hour PM10 standard. The Agency also is not changing the secondary 24-hour PM2.5 standard, secondary annual PM2.5 standard, and secondary 24-hour PM10.

Half of US states join GOP lawsuits challenging new EPA rule on deadly soot pollution
84 percent of PM2.5 is from so-called “non-point” sources, meaning the contaminants are more challenging to control. Smoke from wildfires and common dust (including that arising from roads, construction, and agricultural activity) comprise 43% and 16% of all PM2.5 emissions, respectively. Only 16% of PM
emissions come from “point” sources, such as power plants and industrial sources.9 Further, the ambient levels of PM in many counties are affected by emissions originating outside the county itself since.
Emissions from non-point sources like wildfires are particularly susceptible to being transported extremely
long distances by the prevailing winds. Even PM originating in other countries, such as China, can help
drive a county into nonattainment status.10
* Due to winds, counties in highly forested states, like California, can be significantly impacted by
wildfire PM, such as smoke, from upwind counties.11 However, while a particular county may not be
responsible for such smoke, it would still suffer the economic consequences were it to be deemed to be in nonattainment as a result.
* In the summer of 2023, Canada suffered from 900 wildfires. For weeks, the smoke from these fires was transported to the United States, affecting at least 32 states.12 This foreign contribution of PM could well affect a given county’s attainment status.
With burdensome regulatory disincentives, counties, and states lose out on manufacturing, construction, and other job-creating opportunities. If the unreasonable PM2.5 standards proposed by
the Biden administration are ultimately finalized, it seems inevitable that more companies will look to offshore their projects.
https://republicanpolicy.house.gov/s...rief-final.pdf

You're late. This was enacted last month. EPA reviewed and considered over 700K comments through the multi-year review process.

https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/epa...tly-increasing

Those in my air compliance group see no real issues with industry meeting these standards as they knew it was coming for 10+ years. Trump paused it, but most in industry knew it would eventually become policy once he was out of office.

For those wondering, PM 2.5 is pretty dangerous stuff if you're constantly exposed to it. It's a super fine particulate that gets embedded in your lungs and is difficult for the lungs to shed. The stuff leads to all sorts of health issues and that is a fact. Not some Green agenda thing. I think a lot of you would lose your mind if you knew just how dangerous it is from an inhalation exposure standpoint to live near gravel base, unpaved roads. We're finding out it's somewhat like asbestos exposure. The recent change in PM 2.5 is somewhat related to this. For those of us living in the Midwest, you see just how much fine road dust gets tossed into the air and just stays there after a car drives past. Expect many highly travelled gravel paved country roads to become paved in the coming years.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

You're late. This was enacted last month. EPA reviewed and considered over 700K comments through the multi-year review process.

Yes the EPA did such a good review that more than half the states are taking them to court.

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Those in my air compliance group see no real issues with industry meeting these standards as they knew it was coming for 10+ years. Trump paused it, but most in industry knew it would eventually become policy once he was out of office.

And no comment on 84% of PM2.5 is from so-called “non-point” sources? Dust, construction by-products like dust and cement dust, agricultural by-products like dust. What could possibly go wrong.
As for your Trump derangement issue, what did the "The Affordable Clean Energy Rule" do in regards to particulate matter? I find no change in the particulate matter in the "The Affordable Clean Energy Rule".

Originally Posted by XutvJet

For those of us living in the Midwest, you see just how much fine road dust gets tossed into the air and just stays there after a car drives past. Expect many highly traveled gravel paved country roads to become paved in the coming years.

That will work out well for workers and farmers who still have a job.

[murderspice]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

You mean like this?
Particulate Matter (PM) Air Quality Standards
Based on the Environmental Protection Agency's (EPA's) reconsideration of the air quality criteria and the national ambient air quality standards (NAAQS) for particulate matter (PM), the EPA is revising the primary annual PM2.5 standard by lowering the level from 12.0 µg/m3 to 9.0 µg/m3. The Agency is retaining the current primary 24-hour PM2.5 standard and the primary 24-hour PM10 standard. The Agency also is not changing the secondary 24-hour PM2.5 standard, secondary annual PM2.5 standard, and secondary 24-hour PM10.

Half of US states join GOP lawsuits challenging new EPA rule on deadly soot pollution
84 percent of PM2.5 is from so-called “non-point” sources, meaning the contaminants are more challenging to control. Smoke from wildfires and common dust (including that arising from roads, construction, and agricultural activity) comprise 43% and 16% of all PM2.5 emissions, respectively. Only 16% of PM
emissions come from “point” sources, such as power plants and industrial sources.9 Further, the ambient levels of PM in many counties are affected by emissions originating outside the county itself since.
Emissions from non-point sources like wildfires are particularly susceptible to being transported extremely
long distances by the prevailing winds. Even PM originating in other countries, such as China, can help
drive a county into nonattainment status.10
* Due to winds, counties in highly forested states, like California, can be significantly impacted by
wildfire PM, such as smoke, from upwind counties.11 However, while a particular county may not be
responsible for such smoke, it would still suffer the economic consequences were it to be deemed to be in nonattainment as a result.
* In the summer of 2023, Canada suffered from 900 wildfires. For weeks, the smoke from these fires was transported to the United States, affecting at least 32 states.12 This foreign contribution of PM could well affect a given county’s attainment status.
With burdensome regulatory disincentives, counties, and states lose out on manufacturing, construction, and other job-creating opportunities. If the unreasonable PM2.5 standards proposed by
the Biden administration are ultimately finalized, it seems inevitable that more companies will look to offshore their projects.
https://republicanpolicy.house.gov/s...rief-final.pdf

Your sources always crack me up. I thought it was irony at first.

[Car-Addicted]

XutvJet
Nearly half of US states join GOP lawsuit challenging new EPA rule on deadly soot pollution
The EPA rule sets maximum levels of fine particle pollution — more commonly known as soot — at 9 micrograms per cubic meter of air, down from 12 micrograms established a decade ago under the Obama administration.
Besides Kentucky and West Virginia, other states joining the lawsuit include: Alabama, Alaska, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Utah and Wyoming.

You best get calling your representative. I hope he isn't a farmer.

[RM7]

Route soot exhaust into the cabin.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by murderspice

Your sources always crack me up. I thought it was irony at first.

There might be a thread to question my sources but you picked the wrong one. This is about lawsuits against the EPA, Who should I quote? Green Peace, National Audubon Society, Nature Conservancy or the DNC?

[murderspice]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

There might be a thread to question my sources but you picked the wrong one. This is about lawsuits against the EPA, Who should I quote? Green Peace, National Audubon Society, Nature Conservancy or the DNC?

People who actually know things don’t have to quote other people.

[x622]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

CARB is California, not EPA. States can voluntarily elect to follow CARB. So far, 15 states have implemented CARB into their laws.

There are CARB approved parts and there are parts that meet the EPA Tampering Policy. There are PLENTY of companies out there that sell CARB and EPA compliant parts including tuning devices that add power, aftermarket turbos and superchargers, etc. You simply have to demonstrate and document compliance. Many reputable companies have and are doing that.

Yeah, it's harder to start an aftermarket performance parts company without a lot of cash because of CARB, EPA, CAA, etc. requirements, but that pretty much goes for any business that makes auto parts or anything for that matter that must meet industry or regulatory standards.

Cool story. Next you'll tell me that California isn't using it's status to influence nationwide change. Then you'll tell me that the red tape to get something CARB approved is oh-so-easy. Then you'll mention that other states don't have to follow it if they don't want to. It's an artificial barrier to entry that snuffs out innovation and business, pure and simple. Go ahead and check out the due diligence requirements to get CARB approval and get back to me.

Straight up, this is why this shitty country is this way. On both aisles you have people with the head way too far up their ass to see what's actually going on while everything deteriorates around them. I fuckin love hyper-partisian my team is better than your team mentalities.

[Weather Man]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

You mean like this?
Particulate Matter (PM) Air Quality Standards
Based on the Environmental Protection Agency's (EPA's) reconsideration of the air quality criteria and the national ambient air quality standards (NAAQS) for particulate matter (PM), the EPA is revising the primary annual PM2.5 standard by lowering the level from 12.0 µg/m3 to 9.0 µg/m3. The Agency is retaining the current primary 24-hour PM2.5 standard and the primary 24-hour PM10 standard. The Agency also is not changing the secondary 24-hour PM2.5 standard, secondary annual PM2.5 standard, and secondary 24-hour PM10.

Half of US states join GOP lawsuits challenging new EPA rule on deadly soot pollution
84 percent of PM2.5 is from so-called “non-point” sources, meaning the contaminants are more challenging to control. Smoke from wildfires and common dust (including that arising from roads, construction, and agricultural activity) comprise 43% and 16% of all PM2.5 emissions, respectively. Only 16% of PM
emissions come from “point” sources, such as power plants and industrial sources.9 Further, the ambient levels of PM in many counties are affected by emissions originating outside the county itself since.
Emissions from non-point sources like wildfires are particularly susceptible to being transported extremely
long distances by the prevailing winds. Even PM originating in other countries, such as China, can help
drive a county into nonattainment status.10
* Due to winds, counties in highly forested states, like California, can be significantly impacted by
wildfire PM, such as smoke, from upwind counties.11 However, while a particular county may not be
responsible for such smoke, it would still suffer the economic consequences were it to be deemed to be in nonattainment as a result.
* In the summer of 2023, Canada suffered from 900 wildfires. For weeks, the smoke from these fires was transported to the United States, affecting at least 32 states.12 This foreign contribution of PM could well affect a given county’s attainment status.
With burdensome regulatory disincentives, counties, and states lose out on manufacturing, construction, and other job-creating opportunities. If the unreasonable PM2.5 standards proposed by
the Biden administration are ultimately finalized, it seems inevitable that more companies will look to offshore their projects.
https://republicanpolicy.house.gov/s...rief-final.pdf

Every year 5,200 tons (4,700 metric tons) of interplanetary dust particles reach the Earth's surface, a new study reports.

These novel findings suggest that cosmic dust is the main source of extraterrestrial material on Earth, far exceeding the input from larger, more visible meteorites, which are considered to bring less than 10 tons (nine metric tons) of material to Earth every year.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Certain aftermarket companies and shops are breaking the law by developing software and installing parts that defeat emissions controls. That's illegal. Period. Simple as that. It doesn't matter if it's 3 cars or 4 million. These individuals (including the buyers) are breaking the law and they know it.

This whole thing stemmed originally stemmed from EPA figuring out that a majority of the automakers and engine control companies had developed and were employing emissions defeat devices on millions of engines. That is just bonkers to me to think so many companies were doing this and for such a long time. Many knew other companies were doing it and willfully decided to do the same since no one had been caught and they saw the $$$. No until some college students figured it out did EPA and CARB actually get clued into it.

Point being, you rarely can trust industry to do the right thing. Profit over most anything, in most cases.

And this is exactly why these idiots shouldn't be making rules. They didn't understand their OWN TESTS as well as the industry, got mad that the industry figured out the test, and created a testing mode. It wasn't a defeat device, it was a case of industry being smarter than unelected bureaucrats, and the bureaucrats getting mad.

I think it proves that the EPA testing was horribly flawed, and that they can't be trusted to create an acceptable test, or reasonable requirements.

Like an elementary school basketball team getting beat by Charles Barkley in a pickup game, you can't be mad when you're outmatched, yet the EPA was.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by x622

Cool story. Next you'll tell me that California isn't using it's status to influence nationwide change. Then you'll tell me that the red tape to get something CARB approved is oh-so-easy. Then you'll mention that other states don't have to follow it if they don't want to. It's an artificial barrier to entry that snuffs out innovation and business, pure and simple. Go ahead and check out the due diligence requirements to get CARB approval and get back to me.

Straight up, this is why this shitty country is this way. On both aisles you have people with the head way too far up their ass to see what's actually going on while everything deteriorates around them. I fuckin love hyper-partisian my team is better than your team mentalities.

Not wrong at all. Both sides have an endless push for the next step in their agendas too. They're not content with a change they support, they treat everything as "utter domination is all that is acceptable".

[Boostedphil698]

Originally Posted by cooolone2

And when the SCOTUS knocks down the Chevron Standard this will all be over... Acronym agencies won't have any power not specifically granted to it by Congress & Law! No more setting ridiculous standards, outside a LAW, no more creating arbitrary fine schedules outside LAW... Pick any acronym agency that has run amok and rejoice that it'll be put in Check Soon!

If they ever get off their butts and make their decision. I forget what case that is.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

The EPA Is Targeting Aftermarket Car Modifications
March 3, 2024
The EPA has provided some clarification about certain items it considers defeat devices. In a memo issued on November 3, 2020 it says “tuners” which “change the ECU… might be an illegal aftermarket defeat device, the use or installation of which might constitute illegal tampering.”
In that same memo, the EPA does let everyone know that there’s no point during the life of a car when tampering with the many emissions-related devices as defined by the agency is okay. Even if you pull the engine or other equipment from a vehicle that’s been wrecked, you still have to play by the rules as defined by the EPA or else.
The agency proudly trots out recent examples of its and the Department of Justice’s enforcement efforts. One involves fining Borla $1,022,500 in 2022 for the sin of manufacturing and selling aftermarket exhausts designed for the removal of catalytic converters.



Big names in the aftermarket world have been caught in this squeeze, like Summit Racing, which settled for $600,000 last summer. Parts iD was hit for $500,000 while Keystone Automotive, the owner of Warn and other off-road brands, incurred a $2.5 million penalty.

New Jersey Department of Environmental Protection’s Bureau of Mobile Sources & Air Compliance & Enforcement is combing through Facebook Marketplace for illegally modified vehicles for sale. Agents reportedly have contacted the owners and [...]

Get.over your fucking self. Tampering with emissions components on "on road" vehicles has been illegal for longer than you've been alive. Karen's getting their panties in a wad when enforcement starts occuring.

[Weather Man]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

Get.over your fucking self. Tampering with emissions components on "on road" vehicles has been illegal for longer than you've been alive. Karen's getting their panties in a wad when enforcement starts occuring.

When the emissions become so insane even the OEM's can't make them work, there is a problem. NONE of these "standards" were set by law, they are being set by Green Idiots embedded in the bureaucracy.

Hotrodding has been a tradition EVERYWHERE since wheels were invented, power hungry idiots taking it away is wrong, period. The standard should be this: keep cats on specced for the HP, have EGR or EGR capture device and gas tank evac cannister. Keep those three things and have fun.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by Weather Man

When the emissions become so insane even the OEM's can't make them work, there is a problem. NONE of these "standards" were set by law, they are being set by Green Idiots embedded in the bureaucracy.

Hotrodding has been a tradition EVERYWHERE since wheels were invented, power hungry idiots taking it away is wrong, period. The standard should be this: keep cats on specced for the HP, have EGR or EGR capture device and gas tank evac cannister. Keep those three things and have fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJBvB9u9prg

Ah got it. "I don't like the degree of emissions regulation so the law doesn't apply to me."

[pbonsalb]

I am purifying my body by drinking lots of water … half the water supply is contaminated and most of the water in plastic bottles has microplastics.

For years the government had the food pyramid upside down. Eat lots of pasta — it is low fat.

Don’t put your faith blindly in government bureaucrats. Also beware the capitalists who care more about their money than your health. Their lobbyists are higher paid and in greater number than your lobbyists.

[Weather Man]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

Ah got it. "I don't like the degree of emissions regulation so the law doesn't apply to me."

When idiots with an agenda make the regulation, not law, then they should be fought and rolled back.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by Weather Man

When idiots with an agenda make the regulation, not law, then they should be fought and rolled back.

And what agenda is that specifically?