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      01-26-2017, 05:32 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dubjj View Post
I'm so glad BMW came out with AWD. We get a retarded amount of snow and rear wheel drive cars don't cut it. The X1 is the greatest. Sorry to all the purests but you're wrong!
Glad to hear your experience is not as shown this clip : Winter vs Summer tyres
which seems to show that our type of 4x4 (i.e. non-permanent, normally 2 wheel drive until wheel-slip detected) on snow with summer tyres is no better than 2 wheel drive - i.e. useless.
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      01-26-2017, 06:17 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by roastbeef View Post
I doubt there's any demand for the stupid halfway X models.
Are you being sarcastic or is this one of those post-truth alternative fact things? Because X1 has outsold every other X model. And the article you're commenting on is specifically about the high demand for X1. I can understand a little bit of snobbery. But outright denying statistics and sales figures is something else.
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      01-26-2017, 09:52 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the6M3 View Post
It's pretty much a Mini anyways. And apparently that's a blessing because the E84 X1 sucked ass.
Let me correct that for you.
The E84 X1 kicked ass, because is a TRUE X-Drive with biased RWD (so it drives like a proper BMW), with a proper seat position and comfortable as a sedan since it is a 3 Series Touring not a Mini. It is also more powerful and much more balanced than the new one, with better dynamics and a better steering wheel feel.

No, it does not blow out of the water the previous model in any way. A toilet seating position, more space achieved even by compromising the seats dimension (narrower and less comfortable seats with no support for legs), a dashboard that looks horrible with a tall ugly stick that looks from another model (seating position again were on E84 position is more leaned back and the shifter is properly comfortable put at the wrist height), a steering wheel that gives no input anymore, less power, no side support on the rear seats, cheaper materials than previous model, no Logic 7 Amplifier / Equalizer, etc., is not better. For this reason, some keep what they have and move to an X4, not paying a BMW price for a lipstick FWD Mini.

After I drove the new F48 I realized that E84 is irreplaceable.

Last edited by Teutonic; 01-26-2017 at 10:38 AM..
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      01-26-2017, 09:55 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KPD View Post
Are you being sarcastic or is this one of those post-truth alternative fact things? Because X1 has outsold every other X model. And the article you're commenting on is specifically about the high demand for X1. I can understand a little bit of snobbery. But outright denying statistics and sales figures is something else.
X1 is selling well not only becouse it is actually very good suv, but also due to the reasonable price and discounts.
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      01-26-2017, 11:51 AM   #27
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I never drove the f84, I could not bring myself to like how it looked and it was not on our radar. I did drive the f48 of course and immedialty loved it. Its the best small suv I have ever drove. I did not compare it to the old one in anyway except looks so would be unfair of me to say one is better then the other.

Have had a 5 series, 325, 118 and 120d in the past. Enjoyed them all. Enjoyed my extended test drive with the X1 equally as much on both fast roads and twisty country UK lanes I enjoy throwing my Ducat Scrambler around.

I bought the car based on what it offers and how it handles etc. Obviously many others have done the same and the result is demand has just ballooned hence the need for the new factory.

If your happy with your f84 then thats great. If your happy with your f48 thats great too. Why do some feel they need to justify their model or piss on someone elses. Go out and have a lil drive in your beloved motor rather then throw negative energy onto the forum
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      01-26-2017, 01:11 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by KSERGEI-BY View Post
X1 is selling well not only becouse it is actually very good suv, but also due to the reasonable price and discounts.
We're not talking about the reasons behind the high demand. The guy is simply saying the X1s aren't selling. That is false. X1 is the best selling X model. The very damn article he's commenting on is specifically about that!! It's just bizarre.
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      01-26-2017, 07:29 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Destroya View Post
I've had my X1 for over a year now. The vehicle has been great. Nimble and surprisingly quick around town. Interior is very spacious. Even the standard seats, which I thought would not be very supportive, have proven to be comfortable on long trips. If you want a small SUV the X1 is hard to beat.
I had an x1 loaner when the new body came out...it's pretty awesome, a great alternative for young couples, rich 20-30 something's, and retirees.
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      01-27-2017, 01:55 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dubjj View Post
I'm so glad BMW came out with AWD. We get a retarded amount of snow and rear wheel drive cars don't cut it. The X1 is the greatest. Sorry to all the purests but you're wrong!
The BMW X1 does not have AWD as such, the X-Drive system on the X1 is an intelligent 4wd system which means that the 4wd will only come on in situations where the X-Drive system detects it is required.

This is a different system to the X3 and X5 for example, which are genuine AWD - I.e you have permanent 4WD regardless of the driving situations.

I see a lot of people saying the X1 is AWD but technically it isn't as most of the time the car is just front wheel drive.
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      01-27-2017, 06:13 PM   #31
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I had the excellent experience recently of driving all BMW X cars on a snow and ice drive day (do this if you see it advertised) and can happily report the X1 was as effective in the conditions as its larger X brethren. All on snow tyres, of course. The most interesting was the 750 X, which, as a gracious chauffeured limousine, refused to drift like a hoodlum on the ice skid pan.
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      01-27-2017, 06:34 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracus View Post
Let me correct that for you.
The E84 X1 kicked ass, because is a TRUE X-Drive with biased RWD (so it drives like a proper BMW), with a proper seat position and comfortable as a sedan since it is a 3 Series Touring not a Mini. It is also more powerful and much more balanced than the new one, with better dynamics and a better steering wheel feel.

No, it does not blow out of the water the previous model in any way. A toilet seating position, more space achieved even by compromising the seats dimension (narrower and less comfortable seats with no support for legs), a dashboard that looks horrible with a tall ugly stick that looks from another model (seating position again were on E84 position is more leaned back and the shifter is properly comfortable put at the wrist height), a steering wheel that gives no input anymore, less power, no side support on the rear seats, cheaper materials than previous model, no Logic 7 Amplifier / Equalizer, etc., is not better. For this reason, some keep what they have and move to an X4, not paying a BMW price for a lipstick FWD Mini.

After I drove the new F48 I realized that E84 is irreplaceable.
Had E84 for almost 5 years, have F48 for 3-4 months. I would never go back.
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      01-30-2017, 01:38 AM   #33
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For security reasons (competition) BMW does not release full details of F48 x-drive, nor other BMW x-drives.

BMW claim it has "same" X-drive= active clutch system as in RWD architectures. I have no reason not to believe that.

"Same" means the same principle - active clutches - but of course STD FWD means slightly different set-up. To ensure "RWD-feeling" without having the risk of sudden change from FWD to RWD handling, BMW needs to send some torque to rear even att "no slippage". Typically about 30%. I believe my X4 35i is sending about 60% of torque to rear while driving strait ahead on asphalt - deduced by tire wear and behaviour.

Since I have not driven X1 on ice/snow, I don't know the exact behaviour, but I expect BMW has given the rear wheels more han 50% torque to rear, to get "BMW feeling". This is confirmed by ttimbo. Again, my X4 has about 60-70% to rear on ice/snow.
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      01-30-2017, 02:56 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tjalle View Post
For security reasons (competition) BMW does not release full details of F48 x-drive, nor other BMW x-drives.

BMW claim it has "same" X-drive= active clutch system as in RWD architectures. I have no reason not to believe that.

"Same" means the same principle - active clutches - but of course STD FWD means slightly different set-up. To ensure "RWD-feeling" without having the risk of sudden change from FWD to RWD handling, BMW needs to send some torque to rear even att "no slippage". Typically about 30%. I believe my X4 35i is sending about 60% of torque to rear while driving strait ahead on asphalt - deduced by tire wear and behaviour.

Since I have not driven X1 on ice/snow, I don't know the exact behaviour, but I expect BMW has given the rear wheels more han 50% torque to rear, to get "BMW feeling". This is confirmed by ttimbo. Again, my X4 has about 60-70% to rear on ice/snow.
This seems to contradict everything I've seen about the system and what my BMW dealer told me.

For example, in the BMW F48 Powertrain technical documentation, in section 4 "X-Drive" it states :

"The all-wheel drive system in the F48 was redeveloped and for the first time at BMW. Although this all-wheel drive system is also called xDrive, it is considerably different from the versions previously installed, which were based on a rear-wheel drive.

and this...

"In most driving situations only the front wheels are driven. Only in certain situations is some of the drive torque also transmitted to the rear wheels."

You can find the technical document here

The Wikipedia entry on x-Drive says :

"A variation on the xDrive system is present in the 2015 BMW X1 (F48), which is based on a front-wheel drive design with a transversely-mounted engine. In the FWD-derived xDrive variant, the front wheels receive 100% of the torque when the xDrive clutch is open, giving it a front bias instead of the usual xDrive rear bias."

There is more information in this Bimmerpost thread, specifically the 4th post.
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Last edited by MrTracey; 01-30-2017 at 03:04 AM..
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      01-30-2017, 04:47 AM   #35
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Interesting:
-"BMW" claims that they have both a "modified" Haldex 5 up front and an additional active clutch in rear.
-INFO claims that system CAN send 0% torque to rear, but - normally - does not do it, for same reason as I wrote - to avoid going from understeer to oversteer.

If INFO is correct, BMW is sending 0 torque to rear in more instances then I expected. If so, they are still only doing it to save fuel, and if wheel- steeringwheel- or lateral sensors are registering any input, they will send torque rearwards.

I forgot:" BMW claims it can send 100% torque to rear in a split second". Wrong: signal takes no time, but building oilpressure and building torque takes about a full second.

Again: any input from sensors will activate system to send torque rear - just in case. This will not occur on testdyno.

Sending e.g. 30% torque to rear will have an impact on fuelconsumption of, probably, less than 1%. Compared to free rolling prop.

Audi has come out with new system with uncoupled propshaft at straight ahead, which of course will, slightly, reduce comsumption.
Audi can afford to have an initial slight understeer, since it is a FWD company - BMW can not.
This system is for low performance vehicles only.

Like BMW, it is likely, that Audi will engage prop att slightest input from sensors - no one will see/notice.

Last edited by Tjalle; 01-30-2017 at 05:31 AM.. Reason: Forgot
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      01-30-2017, 05:15 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tjalle View Post
For security reasons (competition) BMW does not release full details of F48 x-drive, nor other BMW x-drives.

.
??
They have released quite a bit

Some:
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      01-30-2017, 10:02 AM   #37
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E90, thanks for INFO.

Yes they have released what would be obvious to any competitor, but not the important thing: the strategy. I.e. what input that will trigger a build up of rear torque for F48.

BMW claims that "100 % torque" (to rear) can be obtained in 250 mS - that's not true, because it is not in line with law of physics, it takes time to build up oil pressure and, then, torque. In my experience about a second.

Again, I have all reason to believe BMW has done a good job with the AWD on F48, as I know they have on my car.

There is nothing in documents that convince me that F48 is "normally" in FWD-mode. On the contrary - anything from a windgust to a pothole will send torque to rear-"just in case". This is not wrong, just being precautious, but it is not the politically "correct" mode at present.
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      01-30-2017, 03:46 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tjalle View Post
E90, thanks for INFO.

Yes they have released what would be obvious to any competitor, but not the important thing: the strategy. I.e. what input that will trigger a build up of rear torque for F48.


There is nothing in documents that convince me that F48 is "normally" in FWD-mode. On the contrary - anything from a windgust to a pothole will send torque to rear-"just in case". This is not wrong, just being precautious, but it is not the politically "correct" mode at present.



Quote:
In most driving situations only the front wheels are driven
Quote:
Only in certain situations is some of the drive torque also transmitted to the rear wheels.
The distribution of the drive torque between the front and rear wheels is defined by the DSC.

The following criteria are taken into account:
• Speed
• Lateral and longitudinal acceleration
• Brake control
• Steering angle
• Wheel speeds
• Vehicle longitudinal￿inclination
• Pedal sensor position
• Driving program (SPORT, COMFORT, ECO PRO)
• DSC status (DSC activated/deactivated, DTC activated/deactivated)

Depending on the driving situation, some of the drive torque is transmitted to the rear wheels.

The exact ratio of the torque distribution is dependent￿on￿the￿activation￿of the multidisc clutch, as well as the slip of the wheels. Some factors on the activation of the multidisc clutch are listed below.

The four-wheel drive is activated in the following situations, if there are no other criteria present which
prevent this:
• Understeering vehicle
• Increased difference in speed￿between front and rear wheels
• Large vehicle longitudinal inclination (e.g. o inclines)
• Kick-down position
• Sporty driving style
• Respective environmental￿conditions, roadway conditions and type of terrain

The four-wheel drive is switched off in the following situations, if there are no other criteria present
which prevent this:
• Large steering angle and driving speeds
• Strong braking (ABS)
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      01-31-2017, 01:27 AM   #39
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Obviously there are a lot of reasons to send some torque to rear.

Again: it is politically correct to claim "no AWD which would use fuel" - unless needed.
Still there is the propshaft using some fuel - albeit marginal.

And - of course - during emission testing there will be no need for torque to rear. Audi will have its prop decoupled.

The strategy for "torque to rear", has been developed during extensive testdriving (e.g. on ice in Sweden), and engineers will adjust strategy to ensure "best possibel" handling - regardless of marginal increase in fuel consumption.
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      02-02-2017, 09:32 PM   #40
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Wow, crazy responses here, hilarious, the vehicle is selling well, good for BMW. I hope it continues to sell well. If it doesn't meet your needs (or wants) then look at other models or other manufacturers.

I would love to have one but it would need to be electric.
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      02-03-2017, 12:59 AM   #41
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Imola, I think you misunderstood - the discussion is not about "bad" AWD/handling on F48 but rather how come it is so good, when "only base FWD layout"?

Within 5 years BMW will come out with X1/X2 with electric RWD- that's why I am checking base X1 characteristics.
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      02-15-2017, 04:13 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imola.ZHP View Post
Wow, crazy responses here, hilarious, the vehicle is selling well, good for BMW. I hope it continues to sell well. If it doesn't meet your needs (or wants) then look at other models or other manufacturers.
Indeed.

Truth one: This is a vehicle which was engineered to be something that BMW could put into the market at a reasonable price point, for what it offered. As a result they went with the FWD platform of 2-series AT/GT, Mini, ... And that means it is not an X3, X5, etc. or even inherently rear-wheel driven. This is where the 'purists' start throwing a tantrum...

Truth two: Having done this, BMW have managed to create a formula that has come pretty close to being the perfect vehicle for many people. It's good looking outside and in, with the right brand (to many), has all the key options available (that people actually buy) and actually pretty decent standard equipment, is huge on the inside (it's actually an MPV/hatchback hybrid on stilts so that makes sense), is fuel-efficient, and has managed to retain some measure of driving fun (maybe not in an absolute sense compared to say a 3-series, but relative to competitors it is very good). And all of this at a price which is not radically higher than your typical small MPV. A base sDrive 16d with a few key boxes ticked comes in 25% more expensive than a decent Renault Scenic, Nissan Qashqai or similar, which in Europe at least is the competition. Knowing that the difference in depreciation already solves half of that problem, that's a premium (roughly 10-15%) that many (many) people seem willing to pay to have a BMW that can actually serve as primary family car for anyone with 1 or 2 kids.

I don't see the problem to be honest (and I drive an RWD BMW with 6-in-line every day). Ours is on order, and I write this as a bona fide car enthusiast.
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      03-06-2017, 05:36 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonMirkone View Post
Had E84 for almost 5 years, have F48 for 3-4 months. I would never go back.
Numb senses?
E84 is a RWD machine while the F48 is FWD. I understand subjectivity, but that will not compensate for the physics.
Still owning one of the first E84 in North America, fully loaded and will never go to F48. Tried, but it is not for me. Drive more driver oriented cars.
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      03-07-2017, 01:28 AM   #44
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Tracus, why not try upcoming X2, when it comes out with e-awd - I will. E-awd is, in my experience, even more fun than "rear" AWD.
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