Committed F8X buyers, will it bother you if the W205 C63 makes over 500hp?

[BMW M3 CRT]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

in a lot of peoples minds, rowing gears is part of being a driving enthusiast. not to say that you cant be a driving enthusiast if you drive an auto. in a sports car or sportier car, MT is a must to enjoy the experience in the long run IMO. so right there, Merc is out.

Mercedes is out because ist an auto -> okay acceptable!
"in a sports car or sportier car, MT is a must to enjoy the experience" - sorry wrong, because M-DCT is no auto and minimum as sporty as MT ... rest is only your opinion

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

regardless, its too early for your doom and gloom scenario. here are a list of things that you or no one else knows right now

-how fast the m3 will truly be
-how much power the m3 will make to the wheels
-how heavy the production m3/4 is in the real world with options / base model
-how heavy the c63 will be
-how much power the c63 will make to the wheels
-how the m3 will handle
-how the c63 will handle

you don't know a single one of those answers, so I would consider constraining the hysterics.

Okay you are right but there are some fact you should not ignore:

• C205 is ~100kg lighter than C204 so C205 C63 most probably is ~100kg lighter tha C204 C63
• -100kg is an greater weight saving than F8xM3/M4 vs. E9xM3 so weight difference between the new cars would be definetly smaller as between their precessors
• F8xM3/M4 has nearly the same hp than E9xM3 vs. C205 C63 would most probably gets more hp tha the C204 C63, 480-500hp would be the right numbers(!) so the hp gap between M3/M4 and C63 is getting greater.
• target from AMG is to be faster than BMW M - every new generation AMG C-Class was in handling and performance terms nearer at the M3 tha their precessor

SO, with these fact is no simple "shot into the blue" but an conclusion with an real high probability ! Also without knowing the numbers you listed.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by BMW M3 CRT

Mercedes is out because ist an auto -> okay acceptable!
"in a sports car or sportier car, MT is a must to enjoy the experience" - sorry wrong, because M-DCT is no auto and minimum as sporty as MT ... rest is only your opinion


Okay you are right but there are some fact you should not ignore:

• C205 is ~100kg lighter than C204 so C205 C63 most probably is ~100kg lighter tha C204 C63
• -100kg is an greater weight saving than F8xM3/M4 vs. E9xM3 so weight difference between the new cars would be definetly smaller as between their precessors
• F8xM3/M4 has nearly the same hp than E9xM3 vs. C205 C63 would most probably gets more hp tha the C204 C63, 480-500hp would be the right numbers(!) so the hp gap between M3/M4 and C63 is getting greater.
• target from AMG is to be faster than BMW M - every new generation AMG C-Class was in handling and performance terms nearer at the M3 tha their precessor

SO, with these fact is no simple "shot into the blue" but an conclusion with an real high probability ! Also without knowing the numbers you listed.

not sure if you are aware, but IMO stands for "in my opinion". That's why I said that its not the case for all people, and some like autos in sportier cars. I personally don't, therefore the amg is not a car I am interested in, hence the IMO in my statement.

the average HP, and IMO wheel HP between the s65 and s55 is very significant, and we shall see how significant that is for the merc. bmws claims are very quick indeed, and if the car is in fact as fast as the m5 to 1000m, then it will be just as fast if not faster than a prior gen c63 amg pp with 481 hp

just like BMWs weight claims, ill wait to see if merc can actually drop the weight or not. they are also starting from a 3900 lb car, so they need to lose a lot of weight to get down to even the e9x level. lower optioned cars with CF roof of the e9x gen are around 3500 lbs. the same for the m3/4 should be anywhere from 3350-3450 lbs. big gap between these two and the Mercedes.

like I said, I want to see the facts before I have any comments.

fact is, the f80 is going to be a lot faster than the e9x. its been claimed by BMW and the data we already have supports it, but we will find out soon just how much faster it is. not to mention the first owner claiming that the power claims are true, and he owns an e9x m3 as well as a former owner of an f13 m6.

EDIT : also, that weight loss only applies to the base Mercedes engine model, which has a smaller gas tank than its predecessor. it is not the case IIRC for the c350/400 which are still heavy as usual.

[bmwluvr24]

Plain and simple, the latest decade of AMG cars have always been incredible machines, but they are LITERALLY spinning their wheels if they are trying to compete with the M equivalent. Look at the latest challenge of the M235i and the CLA45. The CLA BARELY won against the M variant 235i. Put it against the (again) speculated M2 and the results are the same story from before. Speculation is what we are arguing until the F80/F82 and C205 have head to head comparisons performed.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by phishhead24

For a company that really despises anyone messing with their ECU data, I DO think that they are trying to limit the amount of tinkering. A typical F1 turbo engine spools to 120,000 rpm on a smaller turbo. This is NOT an F1 car, so 200,000 is the highest I have ever seen on any stock car that has been mass produced. Doubt all you want, but from an engineering perspective, there is not much wiggle room for those turbos. I am sure an exhaust, intake, high flow filter, different sized injectors could make it more potent, but simply upping the boost doesn't make sense. Let's not try to create fiction here fellas.

Let me just add one point to the "maxed out" theory:

Don't forget that at sea level the S55 won't reach maximum boost. That is reserved for high altitude and bad conditions.

This means that at sea level the turbos are only operating at perhaps 60-80% boost. So, from an engineering standpoint there is quite a bit of wiggle room left if you live at sea level

Max boost is around 1.25bar I believe. Say that you only need around 0.9bar to make 425hp at sea level. That leaves quite a bit of room to increase boost at sea level and STILL be within max stock boost at 1.25 that the turbos are designed to deliver from BMW.

I'm also pretty sure the tuners can squeeze a few more tenths of boost

In fact German magazine Autobild Sportscars ran a story where they had spoken with 7 German tuners, including AC Schnitzer that has quite close ties with BMW. All of them predicted/presented their versions and quoted 500+ hp... Two even came up with exact numbers of 510hp and 516hp... Manhart quoted 500hp and 640Nm...

They could all be making it up of course, or they quite possibly know a bit more than we do...

BTW, the F1 turbos are RPM limited due to legislation. Not due to engineering decisions

[bmwluvr24]

Originally Posted by Boss330

Let me just add one point to the "maxed out" theory:

Don't forget that at sea level the S55 won't reach maximum boost. That is reserved for high altitude and bad conditions.

This means that at sea level the turbos are only operating at perhaps 60-80% boost. So, from an engineering standpoint there is quite a bit of wiggle room left if you live at sea level

Max boost is around 1.25bar I believe. Say that you only need around 0.9bar to make 425hp at sea level. That leaves quite a bit of room to increase boost at sea level and STILL be within max stock boost at 1.25 that the turbos are designed to deliver from BMW.

I'm also pretty sure the tuners can squeeze a few more tenths of boost

In fact German magazine Autobild Sportscars ran a story where they had spoken with 7 German tuners, including AC Schnitzer that has quite close ties with BMW. All of them predicted/presented their versions and quoted 500+ hp... Two even came up with exact numbers of 510hp and 516hp... Manhart quoted 500hp and 640Nm...

They could all be making it up of course, or they quite possibly know a bit more than we do...

BTW, the F1 turbos are RPM limited due to legislation. Not due to engineering decisions

All valid points. Just when I think I had my bases covered....... Although, the only point I was trying to make with the F1 comparison is that 200,000 rpm is HIGH. Thanks for not being a complete dick about this lesson Boss330.

[Lups]

Originally Posted by phishhead24

All valid points. Just when I think I had my bases covered....... Although, the only point I was trying to make with the F1 comparison is that 200,000 rpm is HIGH. Thanks for not being a complete dick about this lesson Boss330.

I had a comeback for you, I just forgot it.

[bmwluvr24]

Originally Posted by Lups

I had a comeback for you, I just forgot it.

I still love you Anna!!

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by phishhead24

All valid points. Just when I think I had my bases covered....... Although, the only point I was trying to make with the F1 comparison is that 200,000 rpm is HIGH. Thanks for not being a complete dick about this lesson Boss330.

No problem

200.000 IS extremely high...

And you do have a point about the turbos being small. I believe they have come out and said that the turbine side (exhaust side) of the turbos are smaller than on the N54...

However, since the compressor side seems to be capable of delivering a fair bit more air than those on the N54 there should be room for some power upgrades. We might even see 500hp from a tuner, at sea level, with not much more than 1.3bar...

And if you live at high altitude, you might not get full advantage of a tune. At sea level the tuners have a bit of leeway, but at high altitude this becomes less.

So, say a tuner ups the boost to 1.3bar. Then that might be all she wrote, regardless of altitude... At sea level you get 500hp with the tune. At high altitude it would be comparable to stock...

[Lups]

Originally Posted by phishhead24

I still love you Anna!!

Hey now, these guys still believe I'm a guy, let's not destroy their belief system, which is held together by the strong hold of men+ engines= perfect life as long as the wife doesn't know where the garage is!

You too, M!

[bmwluvr24]

Originally Posted by Lups

Hey now, these guys still believe I'm a guy, let's not destroy their belief system, which is held together by the strong hold of men+ engines= perfect life as long as the wife doesn't know where the garage is!

You too, P!

Matthew is much better, but if you are an abbreviator (is that a word?) then you can call me whatever you want. Master P was a terrible rapper, so how about Big P? HAHAHAHAHA.......has a porn ring to it. Or at least someone with street cred!!

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Lups

Hey now, these guys still believe I'm a guy, let's not destroy their belief system, which is held together by the strong hold of men+ engines= perfect life as long as the wife doesn't know where the garage is!

You too, M!

Do we have an undercover female agent????

Funny story: when I wrote "undercover", my auto correct tried to change it to my native languages word for a ladys lower regions...

[Lups]

Originally Posted by phishhead24

Matthew is much better, but if you are an abbreviator (is that a word?) then you can call me whatever you want. Master P was a terrible rapper, so how about Big P? HAHAHAHAHA.......has a porn ring to it. Or at least someone with street cred!!

Well, coming from the heavy metal roots of mine, I'm unable to comment further, but I have to say, it could work in my world too.

BTW, to the horses under the hood. I think I have to stay in this state only. I'm so spoiled with the elderly style drivers here, you can't believe it! A car is seriously packed, but if they see a corner

[M5Rlz]

Originally Posted by Tonymiabmw

Yeah bet the c63 will be a heavy pig, glad BMW is going back to a 6er and lighter weight. Have a feeling his is gonna be a really fun car.

May be a heavy pig but best believe it'll have an easy to access ECU compared to the ones we'll probably get :/

[E39M235i]

Power is power it is how it is delivered that makes the difference that is why the absolute perfect balance of a BMW and that magical power to weight ratio is what makes M the most powerful letter in the world of performance cars so much experience driving high end cars I can tell you that when you drive them in anger is where you can feel those subtle little differences that make BMW what it is THE ULTIMATE DRIVING MACHINE!!!