Committed F8X buyers, will it bother you if the W205 C63 makes over 500hp?

[gee-m-w]

Nothing is maxed out. It's minimized out to emit less CO2 than a farm animal. Running it just a little bit rich is ideal for enthusiasts. If you can commit to putting in high quality fuel, you can run a lot more ignition timing too. And sure you could move the boost up a hair, just like you were at high altitude.

[/// M sa]

Originally Posted by Jockey

I seriously doubt BMW did a stock factory tune with the turbos running at the ragged edge. That doesn't make any sense for BMW to do that.

I'm sure there is something left.

With the N55 I was able to get over 120 extra tq, no way the new M3/4 is maxed out.

[bmwluvr24]

Originally Posted by Jockey

I seriously doubt BMW did a stock factory tune with the turbos running at the ragged edge. That doesn't make any sense for BMW to do that.

I'm sure there is something left.

For a company that really despises anyone messing with their ECU data, I DO think that they are trying to limit the amount of tinkering. A typical F1 turbo engine spools to 120,000 rpm on a smaller turbo. This is NOT an F1 car, so 200,000 is the highest I have ever seen on any stock car that has been mass produced. Doubt all you want, but from an engineering perspective, there is not much wiggle room for those turbos. I am sure an exhaust, intake, high flow filter, different sized injectors could make it more potent, but simply upping the boost doesn't make sense. Let's not try to create fiction here fellas.

[tdizzle]

Originally Posted by smashhell

Not 500hp. Supposedly the new M5/M6 are tested to puts out 600+hp stock.
They are Extremely underrated by BMW.

Yea they're crazy underrated it seems. Looks liek they put out their stated BHP at the wheels. BMS' M5 was putting down around 560whp stock and with a mild tune over 600whp. I think he ran about 11.5 in the 1/4 on stock tires with that first shot at a tune without launch control.

Interesting to see what they put down with catless DPs and a slightly more aggressive tune.

[JTO24]

Originally Posted by phishhead24

For a company that really despises anyone messing with their ECU data, I DO think that they are trying to limit the amount of tinkering. A typical F1 turbo engine spools to 120,000 rpm on a smaller turbo. This is NOT an F1 car, so 200,000 is the highest I have ever seen on any stock car that has been mass produced. Doubt all you want, but from an engineering perspective, there is not much wiggle room for those turbos. I am sure an exhaust, intake, high flow filter, different sized injectors could make it more potent, but simply upping the boost doesn't make sense. Let's not try to create fiction here fellas.

True but you would think from an engineering POV, BMW would have some kind of safety factor built into their operating conditions.. How much so is unknown. I do agree though that the rpm is quite high.

[moonsault270]

I cannot wait for both these cars to hit the market and go toe to toe with each other.

I dont think anyone deep down can deny that a 500+ HP with a make you shit your pants as it passes you beasting exhaust note is not exhilarating and just damn desirable.

I love that BMW seems to be getting to what historically most would consider an M car, an all around street/track precision driving tool, vs AMG's drop a massive engine with globs of power and call it a day philosophy.

The Fxx m5 an m6 while being awesome cars that I would love to own if I were in the $100k + market, did not blow the competition away and BMW learned from it. Rather than trying to differentiate M from the competition they played to the rest.

They learned a valuable lesson and this time around focused on a lightweight , RWD car that will differentiate the philosophy of M vs the new C AMG, these cars will be very dissimilar in character.

Maybe I drank the cool-aid but I think this car will be the goods. The M3 is the reigning champ, I cannot see them f'ing it up. C63 is looking like it will offer some STIFF competition. Really looking forward to this fight.

Would have loved a 500hp NA v8 m3 though

[indus]

Originally Posted by dhoggm3

The M3 will put its power down much better, and out-handle the Merc as always. And 6MT of course. It's an easy choice.

Why should it put the power down better? The new C63 AMG may very well have 4wd so it will put the power down better especially in the wet.

Watch this, the E63 spanks the M5 to 60

If the ground was damp the E63 would have left it for dead

And you (and plenty of others on this thread) are assuming it will be heavier and not handle as well. These are assumptions, the new c class will be lighter and their handling has been improving all the time.

Some people (not aimed at you specifically) need to take their BMW fanboy glasses off and see the world for what it is.

The M3 might well be better than the C63, but nobody knows yet.

[Algol]

Originally Posted by JTO24

True but you would think from an engineering POV, BMW would have some kind of safety factor built into their operating conditions.. How much so is unknown. I do agree though that the rpm is quite high.

It probably does have some leeway built in. I was able to net an additional 50 hp and 90 tq out of an N54 with only a modest tune. No intake, exhaust, aux injection or anything like that. Unless someone here has a compressor map of the turbo's used in the M3/4 then it is impossible to know if the turbos are 'maxed out'.

[Koldun]

Originally Posted by dreamsongs

Everything that's been said and I'll add that BMW is notorious for underrating their HP output. Why ? I'm not sure, but I'm almost certain it will be more than 431....more like 450 HP plus the extra torque. That's more than enough to lose your driver's license if you drive it like it's meant to be.

Notorious only among dyno queens maybe. BMW hardly underrate their cars. Some may give you an initial dyno run that is higher than the official power, but once you do a couple of more runs and let that heat soak in, they actually test very close to stated specs. Just having similar power to the old engine, with more low end torque and a lighter chassis, means the new car will be awesome. Are people so insecure that they have to bandy about this myth to make themselves feel better about the car? Has the M division fallen so far that they need a legion of Internet apologists? It's pathetic. This whole thread reeks of fear.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by indus

And you (and plenty of others on this thread) are assuming it will be heavier and not handle as well. These are assumptions, the new c class will be lighter and their handling has been improving all the time.

Some people (not aimed at you specifically) need to take their BMW fanboy glasses off and see the world for what it is.

The M3 might well be better than the C63, but nobody knows yet.

AWD may make it faster from a dig, but in terms of at speed acceleration, its no faster, and to me, that's more valuable.

Also, the prior gen c63 weighed 3900 lbs in its lightest form. I highly doubt they will subtract 500+ lbs from this to make it roughly equal to the m3, but anything is possible.

The engine is smaller, but has a lot more equipment (turbos and cooling) which will negate any loss of weight due to smaller displacement. Where is the weight loss going to come from? We haven't heard much about use of CF or anything like that, and even the new cla45 is no lightweight, so hard to believe the c63 will come in below 3600 lbs in my mind.

BUT, anything is possible, and I would love it if they did. Despite that, I don't like the design language and don't want another auto, so im not in the market regardless.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by Koldun

Notorious only among dyno queens maybe. BMW hardly underrate their cars. Some may give you an initial dyno run that is higher than the official power, but once you do a couple of more runs and let that heat soak in, they actually test very close to stated specs. Just having similar power to the old engine, with more low end torque and a lighter chassis, means the new car will be awesome. Are people so insecure that they have to bandy about this myth to make themselves feel better about the car? Has the M division fallen so far that they need a legion of Internet apologists? It's pathetic. This whole thread reeks of fear.

That's just not true. All the turbo motors they have put out including the n20 have all dyno'd at numbers suggesting far less than 15-20% drivetrain loss. The e9x m3 shows approximately 15-20% drivetrain loss. And if you think the s65 doesn't make less power when hot, you are drinking the s65 koolaid.

Not to mention that multiple runs with no cool down is not indicative of real world performance unless you are driving the hell out of it on the track. Even then, the car still pulls damn hard. My n54 powered 1M still ripped on track in 100 degree heat, and ran down m3's all day long. My 997tt had almost zero perceptible power loss, and this was at 90 degree temps at a high speed track at TWS.

Additionally the fans that they have in most dyno shops don't have the CFM to equate to the air coming into the motor at high speeds in the real world.

Not to say this one will be underrated as well, but all prior turbo motors have been. N54 more so than the n55.

[jbockrd]

Originally Posted by camber

No.

Because 6 MT.

+1

[dmk08]

Most people in the US are not really committed at this point. We could go back to the dealer and get our deposit back. So I guess my point is if we were jelly of the C63 we could just go cancel our order and head to the MB dealer.

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by phishhead24

For a company that really despises anyone messing with their ECU data, I DO think that they are trying to limit the amount of tinkering. A typical F1 turbo engine spools to 120,000 rpm on a smaller turbo. This is NOT an F1 car, so 200,000 is the highest I have ever seen on any stock car that has been mass produced. Doubt all you want, but from an engineering perspective, there is not much wiggle room for those turbos. I am sure an exhaust, intake, high flow filter, different sized injectors could make it more potent, but simply upping the boost doesn't make sense. Let's not try to create fiction here fellas.

I completely agree BMW is limiting the amount of tinkering.

But let's not pass your opinion here off as fact either, fella. The only way you are going to prove to me that these turbos are "maxed out" from the factory would be to pull out the corresponding flow graphs and do some plotting.

[fabolous]

Originally Posted by camber

No.

Because 6 MT.

+1 Exactly!

[bmwluvr24]

Originally Posted by Jockey

I completely agree BMW is limiting the amount of tinkering.

But let's not pass your opinion here off as fact either, fella. The only way you are going to prove to me that these turbos are "maxed out" from the factory would be to pull out the corresponding flow graphs and do some plotting.

I am not passing anything as fact Wiley Coyote. I am simply saying from an engineering stand point, there isn't much wiggle room.

[solstice]

Originally Posted by dmk08

Most people in the US are not really committed at this point. We could go back to the dealer and get our deposit back. So I guess my point is if we were jelly of the C63 we could just go cancel our order and head to the MB dealer.

Yes, what I meant is after taking delivery but since no one has yet I used committed to buy.

And regarding how tunable or not the F8X is let's just assume that the gap stock and tuned between the BMW and Benz will stay the same, both stock or both tuned. We already had a "how tunable the S55" is or not looooooong discussion...

[Jockey]

Originally Posted by phishhead24

I am not passing anything as fact Wiley Coyote. I am simply saying from an engineering stand point, there isn't much wiggle room.

I didn't realize you engineered these turbos or did the ECU programming on the current car there sweet cheeks.

[dreamsongs]

At the end of the day and if these 2 cars are close in performance the BMW fans will stay with BMW and get the M4 and the AMG guys will probably stay with their C63's... that's how it will go.

[bmwluvr24]

Originally Posted by Jockey

I didn't realize you engineered these turbos or did the ECU programming on the current car there sweet cheeks.

HAHAHAHAHAHA.........no need for pet names yet.

[Jockey]

Just responding in kind saddle britches

[dreamsongs]

I watched that whole comparo video of the M5 vs C63 AMG. I'll still take the M5....I guess I'm biased towards BMW after owning 6 of them....