[ArthurMorgan]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

Everyone says M means no longer what it used to mean, but yet, those same people cannot agree WHEN M was still M as they see it, which kinda defeats the entire argument that M lost its way at all.

I think the problem is almost similar to a long-running TV series. Outside of killing off some main character, or literally jumping the shark, sometimes it's really hard to tell when a series got bad, but as a fan, you still know that it happened. I see this whole argument as being kind of like that.

The XM gets an extreme degree of hate because it's perceived as such an egregious violation of everything BMW purists loved about the M brand. It's also visually assaulting and seems to have been purpose built for Instagram thots and Tiktok influencers. Nothing about it is "motorsport", nothing about it is performance-oriented outside of the horsepower number.

I don't blame the people who say the M brand officially lost their way with the original E70 X5 M. I could make the argument that at least they tried, and I love my F85, but I do understand why slapping that badge on an SUV was an affront to all that was holy about the name. I was actually fully expecting that to be brought up in the video and I'm surprised it wasn't.

For me, I'm not really sure when it happened.. but I can tell you the XM doesn't help to assuage people's fears that M is becoming nothing more than another "lifestyle brand".

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by omasou

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXJRrUPh2Bo&t=1s

1. BMW buyers today are completely different than what he is talking about. BMW does not care about people like him (just stating the fact).

2. BMW fans like him can probably buy an Alfa, who are trying to make a drivers car, but no one wants them. Least of all so called driving enthusiasts.

3. Yes, BMW is becoming a sports luxury marketing brand since luxury has gone mainstream now. BMW M is to cars what luxury Swiss watches are to sports. You can get better digital watches. But you are buying luxury in the name of Sport.

Market has moved on. As a company BMW has moved on…they still make some excellent vehicles. Probably best value for money in the luxury market.

Lastly, USD isn’t depreciating anytime soon. Just like that mother of all depressions never happened…The US economy is just too diversified and too much IP being created in the US. Responding to one of the posters who said BMW will be in trouble once the USD depreciates etc etc.

[Rafichicago]

[QUOTE=FCX5;30372341]3. Yes, BMW is becoming a sports luxury marketing brand since luxury has gone mainstream now. BMW M is to cars what luxury Swiss watches are to sports. You can get better digital watches. But you are buying luxury in the name of Sport.


If something went mainstream it is not luxury anymore. Bmw used to make products that nobody else did. Now it’s comparable to MB AUDI etc. exactly why I liked E60 M5 so much. It’s not as quick as the new ones but to me it’s not about the numbers. Bmw seems like it doesn’t care about it’s own history or heritage. Exact opposite of Porsche. It is still a good car. Just not as special as it used to. The car got heavy ? Let’s pump some more power into it. Oh. It’s heavier now ? Let’s pump so more. And more. It doesn’t work for ME. But works for majority and to them as a brand it’s all that matters. Just because more people bought it doesn’t automatically make it a better proposition or a product. More people purchased Bmw than Bentley. That doesn’t make Bmw better car.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by FCX5

Lastly, USD isn’t depreciating anytime soon. Just like that mother of all depressions never happened…The US economy is just too diversified and too much IP being created in the US. Responding to one of the posters who said BMW will be in trouble once the USD depreciates etc etc.

That would be me Berkshire Hathaway is sitting on almost $150 billion in CASH. Move along folks, nothing to see here.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/08/05/berk...s-q2-2023.html

[FCX5]

[QUOTE=Rafichicago;30372668][QUOTE=FCX5;30372341]3. Yes, BMW is becoming a sports luxury marketing brand since luxury has gone mainstream now. BMW M is to cars what luxury Swiss watches are to sports. You can get better digital watches. But you are buying luxury in the name of Sport.


If something went mainstream it is not luxury anymore. Bmw used to make products that nobody else did. Now it’s comparable to MB AUDI etc. exactly why I liked E60 M5 so much. It’s not as quick as the new ones but to me it’s not about the numbers. Bmw seems like it doesn’t care about it’s own history or heritage. Exact opposite of Porsche. It is still a good car. Just not as special as it used to. The car got heavy ? Let’s pump some more power into it. Oh. It’s heavier now ? Let’s pump so more. And more. It doesn’t work for ME. But works for majority and to them as a brand it’s all that matters. Just because more people bought it doesn’t automatically make it a better proposition or a product. More people purchased Bmw than Bentley. That doesn’t make Bmw better car.

I agree. BMW is a mainstream brand at least around Washington DC/ Virgina area (where I live). They are amongst the most common cars one sees. It’s probably what the brand wants…

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

That would be me Berkshire Hathaway is sitting on almost $150 billion in CASH. Move along folks, nothing to see here.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/08/05/berk...s-q2-2023.html

Tells me we will have asset appreciation more than depreciation of USD. Buffet isn’t going to trade his USD for Chinese Yuan or Euros etc etc…not sure what you are getting at. But time will tell 🤷🏻‍♂️

[AndreM2]

As long as people buying cars like the M2 at 1700kg nothing changes.

They just look at sales and profits. Buy those trucks and the next M2 is 1800kg.

I am not spending one penny on those heavy trucks. I enjoy my old BMW like my E30 M3 DTM race car and the 1M Coupe.

I have no interest of going to BMW showrooms. There is nothing that interests me anymore. I know when i was drooling at the shwroom window when they brought the M3 CSL E46. 360hp and under 1400kg.

The profits are there so they don’t need us enthusiasts anymore. I am off to the other side. My cayman GT4RS is on order. At Porsche they like drivers enthusiasts. A pity that it is very expensive. But at BMW they have no interest anymore in us drivers enthusiasts.

I walk into a showroom again if the build a small rwd coupe in the size of a 1M under 1400kg with a 4cil with aproxx 340hp.

If not bye bye BMW not interested anymore!

[DanG]

Originally Posted by AndreM2

As long as people buying cars like the M2 at 1700kg nothing changes.

They just look at sales and profits. Buy those trucks and the next M2 is 1800kg.

I am not spending one penny on those heavy trucks. I enjoy my old BMW like my E30 M3 DTM race car and the 1M Coupe.

I have no interest of going to BMW showrooms. There is nothing that interests me anymore. I know when i was drooling at the shwroom window when they brought the M3 CSL E46. 360hp and under 1400kg.

The profits are there so they don’t need us enthusiasts anymore. I am off to the other side. My cayman GT4RS is on order. At Porsche they like drivers enthusiasts. A pity that it is very expensive. But at BMW they have no interest anymore in us drivers enthusiasts.

I walk into a showroom again if the build a small rwd coupe in the size of a 1M under 1400kg with a 4cil with aproxx 340hp.

If not bye bye BMW not interested anymore!

I agree. I actually think if I needed a new car it would be a Miata.

[audioMeth]

spot on, porsche is next for me. bmw lost its way.

[aaaaaaaaaz]

I might be the unpopular few here - but I enjoy BMW's SUV offering - they look fine (minus iX and XM) , are practical, handles and ride well, have decent power, and most importantly, priced right.

However for cars, I would shop else where - Porsche gives better handling, American muscles are cheap and powerful and are getting better in handling than a decade ago; and there are so many fun and cheap (cheaper than bmw) cars out there. I think a fun car does not need so much power (there is speed limit on the road) to get me excited, however BMW keeps making cars heavier and with more HP.

[AndreM2]

Originally Posted by DanG

I agree. I actually think if I needed a new car it would be a Miata.

I also own a yaris GR and a GR86. Fantastic drivers cars! 1270kg each. HP is nice but lightness is better.

[casualDIYer]

Originally Posted by FCX5

Lastly, USD isn’t depreciating anytime soon. Just like that mother of all depressions never happened…The US economy is just too diversified and too much IP being created in the US. Responding to one of the posters who said BMW will be in trouble once the USD depreciates etc etc.

I don’t know why some think the USD is going anywhere. Planning on jumping over to BRICs? Made of 4 countries not known for financial transparency. Good luck with that.

As for M, current cars are the best in terms of their technical performance but do look quite stupid. Awful exterior design. Don’t despair. It can’t get worse and I expect the ‘H’ platform will be a return to something more familiar. People talk of Chinese influence. Sure but that is waning. The country with the most influence in the car market is the US. I don’t see that changing anytime soon.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by casualDIYer

I expect the ‘H’ platform will be a return to something more familiar. People talk of Chinese influence. Sure but that is waning. The country with the most influence in the car market is the US. I don’t see that changing anytime soon.

Be prepared to be disappointed. The BMW of old is gone and it is not coming back.

BMW Will Have Its Own EV-Focused Platform By 2025
BMW’s future cars and SUVs will ride on a new electric-focused platform the brand plans to introduce in 2025, according to an Automotive News report. Last week, BMW announced that it wants half of the vehicles sold to be EVs by 2030. The New Class platform will be pivotal to the success of the company’s EV goal.

https://insideevs.com/news/497551/bm...platform-2025/

[NoMods]

look at their commercials also, all fashion and glam from my opinion only.

[AndreM2]

We can talk and stil can enjoy our old school BMW.

I am not planning to buy anything new from BMW.

[Clark_Kent]

This is correct. BMW lost its way years ago and M was not too far behind. It's such a shame too since they had a good thing going. My ECON professor was spot on when he said, "You're always better off when you have choices." Truer words have never been spoken.

[FCX5]

Originally Posted by casualDIYer

I don’t know why some think the USD is going anywhere. Planning on jumping over to BRICs? Made of 4 countries not known for financial transparency. Good luck with that.

As for M, current cars are the best in terms of their technical performance but do look quite stupid. Awful exterior design. Don’t despair. It can’t get worse and I expect the ‘H’ platform will be a return to something more familiar. People talk of Chinese influence. Sure but that is waning. The country with the most influence in the car market is the US. I don’t see that changing anytime soon.

Yeah. China is where they may be selling more cars. But US is where they make the profits and revenue. Same for cars and hotel chains as well...LOL

[OriginalFake]

I can appreciate where BMW came from, where they are now and also where they are going. I love the latest M2, M3, M4, etc. and will likely buy an M4 next. If I want an M car that drives like one from 10 years ago, I'll buy one.

[Car-Addicted]

All companies must evolve to survive, I accept BMW's choices. Their bottom line shows they may be right but I suspect outside factors are at play. That said I don't care about their financial success when I want to stock my garage. It was obvious to me that when I wanted a high performance car for auto crossing and track days that I found aesthetically pleasing I had to to the used market for a pre 2021. The 2020 M4CS was perfect and I will maintain this car at a high level and hope it gives me many years of pleasure but if I'm in the market for the same type of car it will not be a BMW. Most likely a Porsche.
Now if I was in the market for a SUV I would absolutely be looking at a X5. I think BMW has rocked that category but it looks like they are doomed to kill that for me with electrification. There will never be a EV in my garage from any company. I care too much about the environment to own a EV.

[tturedraider]

I’m subscribed to several Porsche pages on Instagram and it is obvious from what I see there Porsche has definitely not lost their way. They are maintaining their heritage in both form and design. And I am just amazed at the stunning colors, both exterior and interior, they offer. If I was in the market for a car that didn’t need to have a practical side I would definitely be shopping Porsche. I do very much appreciate that BMW offers more practical cars that are generally fun to drive. Their design department has without doubt gone to shit lately.

[casualDIYer]

Originally Posted by FCX5

Yeah. China is where they may be selling more cars. But US is where they make the profits and revenue. Same for cars and hotel chains as well...LOL

That and the fact the US has much better demographics than China. In the West, the US and France probably have the best population distribution and a brighter future than other western nations. China? Looking grim over the next 10 years. India is where the future is. Expect more attention paid to India in the next 5-10 years.

Getting back to cars, the US market, specifically it's consumers, have driven a tremendous amount of change to the global market. Sometimes it's great. Sometimes it isn't. If US customers truly hated the latest M models, I'd expect to see a change this December, not in 3 years.

As for those considering a Cayman over an M2, dealing with Porsche is a very different experience than BMW. One company is making a sporty road car. The other is making a race car for the street. Very different philosophy when it comes to sales.

As surprising as it is to say, BMW doesn't have much of a design language compared to say Mercedes, Lexus, or even Audi. It seems the latest M cars are the result of a lack of dedication to even the most BMW-esque aspects of their cars. It's clearly a mistake I'm sure BMW is well aware of. Technically though, the B/S58 engine is truly the best engine BMW has ever built and may be one of the best 6's ever built to date for any car maker. BMW has always made very good inline 6s (well, I guess the N54/N55 weren't exactly stellar but that was due mainly to fuel pump and turbo issues, that once fixed, made the engine pretty good except in the early M2 . . . what a mess). The latest M models with S58s perform very well.

[casualDIYer]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

I’m subscribed to several Porsche pages on Instagram and it is obvious from what I see there Porsche has definitely not lost their way. They are maintaining their heritage in both form and design. And I am just amazed at the stunning colors, both exterior and interior, they offer. If I was in the market for a car that didn’t need to have a practical side I would definitely be shopping Porsche. I do very much appreciate that BMW offers more practical cars that are generally fun to drive. Their design department has without doubt gone to shit lately.

It's tempting to compare M with Porsche but I don't see the two as compatible. Maybe if we're talking Macan vs X3, sure. But BMW doesn't make a car like the 718 or 911 which are basically race cars for the street. And by race car, I mean a machine with very specific utility and low unit products (I think there were 41,000 911s made last year). Maybe a better comparison is Chevrolet and the C8 vs C7. How many said GM was losing it's way throwing out years of Corvette development? In fact, it seems GM was praised for it. Or when GM changed the Cadillac, from staid blando box to it's current inception. Or when Mercedes decided to get super aggressive with AMG branded everything. A lot of traditional Merc customers didn't particularly like that but one has to sell cars.

Maybe a better comparison was the GTI, that started as fanatic's icon, got worse in versions 2, 3, and 4, and was mega hit in version 5. If BMW wants to do a little wondering on crap designs, sure. Give it a try. We all know BMW will come back to what made it famous.