[Conissah]

Originally Posted by thebmw

Ironic, because many American brands have FAR better in reliability than German brands. That old myth that American cars suck and have poor reliability is bias on your part. Now if you don't like American cars and they suck for other reasons, that's fine, but that's not what we are talking about here.

The GM twin midsize trucks are BY FAR the least reliable new vehicle out right now. Their 'new' 8 speed trannies are absolute garbage, and they have tons of electrical problems. 2nd is the Camaro... American quality is usually pretty garbage IMO.

[thebmw]

Originally Posted by Conissah

The GM twin midsize trucks are BY FAR the least reliable new vehicle out right now. Their 'new' 8 speed trannies are absolute garbage, and they have tons of electrical problems. 2nd is the Camaro... American quality is usually pretty garbage IMO.

That may be true, don't know. Show some data. Either way, you are referring to a specific model, not an entire brand (for disclosure, I'm not a GM fan, but I am a fan of actual data).

On that note, EVERY BMW model has massive issues with gaskets, plus a variety of minor issues, annoyances, and long term reliability problems. That's an entire brand, not just one model with a transmission that is actually sourced from a 3rd party supplier. All of us here know that is true, but we still somehow like BMW!

[thebmw]

2019 Reliability Ratings:
https://www.jdpower.com/cars/ratings

GM finished 1st, Ford finished 2nd. This is despite the fact that Americans complain about American cars more than Japanese cars or European cars (long explanation behind psychology behind that behavior that I don't have time to get into). That doesn't mean we have to like the actual cars that these brands are producing, it just means that we can't make current statements about reliability based on historical shortcomings.

BTW, nice M2C!!

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by thebmw

2019 Reliability Ratings:
https://www.jdpower.com/cars/ratings

GM finished 1st, Ford finished 2nd. This is despite the fact that Americans complain about American cars more than Japanese cars or European cars (long explanation behind psychology behind that behavior that I don't have time to get into). That doesn't mean we have to like the actual cars that these brands are producing, it just means that we can't make current statements about reliability based on historical shortcomings.

BTW, nice M2C!!

Hang on ... Which brand finished 3rd in your reference above?

BMW.

Yet, in the post previous to this one, you go on and on about how every BMW has gasket issues, issues, annoyances, et. al.

I think the point to be made here is that one can fudge stats just about any way one wants. (J.D. Power certainly does.)

It's no secret that American marques have made great inroads into debunking its poor-reliability stereotype. It's also no secret that Japanese marques have lost ground in the same field. It's no secret, as well, that Italian- and British-built marques bring up the rear.

What no one seems to want to acknowledge is what the 4th-place finisher in the provided results -- Kia -- represents: : How comparatively reliable most Korean marques now are.

[Red Bread]

Just about any car is dead reliable now. Well, barring Alfa. Since so many cars are half liter per cylinder with a ZF8, it's perhaps not that surprising.

[zx10guy]

[fastboatster]

Well, I wonder how they measure their reliability metrics. If that’s just over the warranty period then BMWs are dead reliable.
Was looking at my cars service records and before the end of warranty it only had tire and oil changes. There might have been an ofhg leak and vanos solenoid replacement, but these might have been at 80kmiles. There also was a valve cover gasket leak at 80kmiles, too. I was very shocked by the quotes to get these repairs as well as the run flat tire prices, though.
Anyways, these were all past the regular warranty period so not likely to be caught by JD Power
@VifferMike - am I correct to assume that viffer in your nickname refers to Honda VFR?

[Grip Addict]

Originally Posted by fastboatster

Well, I wonder how they measure their reliability metrics. If that’s just over the warranty period then BMWs are dead reliable.
Was looking at my cars service records and before the end of warranty it only had tire and oil changes. There might have been an ofhg leak and vanos solenoid replacement, but these might have been at 80kmiles. There also was a valve cover gasket leak at 80kmiles, too. I was very shocked by the quotes to get these repairs as well as the run flat tire prices, though.
Anyways, these were all past the regular warranty period so not likely to be caught by JD Power
@VifferMike - am I correct to assume that viffer in your nickname refers to Honda VFR?

There is a reason why many warranty time periods/mileage are set. Very unlikely a OEMs car will break with in 3 years/30k miles. They realize if it does, you deserve it to be fixed. That 4-5+ year is when things start happening.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by fastboatster

@VifferMike - am I correct to assume that viffer in your nickname refers to Honda VFR?

Yessir. Rode a lightly customized first-run '02 Interceptor for several years; was my last bike, and the one I owned the longest. I haven't ridden in more than a decade but the S/N's stuck, dating from my presence on motorcycle forums and such.

[fastboatster]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Yessir. Rode a lightly customized first-run '02 Interceptor for several years; was my last bike, and the one I owned the longest. I haven't ridden in more than a decade but the S/N's stuck, dating from my presence on motorcycle forums and such.

Got it. Former gixxer “squid” here, not that I really was a squid, though)

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by thebmw

2019 Reliability Ratings:
https://www.jdpower.com/cars/ratings

GM finished 1st, Ford finished 2nd. This is despite the fact that Americans complain about American cars more than Japanese cars or European cars (long explanation behind psychology behind that behavior that I don't have time to get into). That doesn't mean we have to like the actual cars that these brands are producing, it just means that we can't make current statements about reliability based on historical shortcomings.

BTW, nice M2C!!

Part of the confusion is that 'quality' and 'reliability' are two different things.

The ford mustang has horrible panel gaps, but that doesn't mean it'll necessarily break down.

My old 350z had a cheap, junky interior with plastics that were hard and scratchy and a bunch of black paint that would peel off any time you touched it with a fingernail.

But it also pretty much didn't break through 13 years of ownership and close to 100K miles. And I drove the absolute crap out of that car, even beating on it on gravel roads from time to time.

[fastboatster]

Speaking of 350z - I thought about getting one, it looks like the early years are very problematic, 6mt wears out quickly and the engine consumes a lot of oil. So I guess even generally solid cars can have years to avoid even among the same generation. How did you like yours, they also seem to be somewhat heavy for a sporty car like this.

[thebmw]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Hang on ... Which brand finished 3rd in your reference above?

BMW.

Yet, in the post previous to this one, you go on and on about how every BMW has gasket issues, issues, annoyances, et. al.

I think the point to be made here is that one can fudge stats just about any way one wants. (J.D. Power certainly does.)

It's no secret that American marques have made great inroads into debunking its poor-reliability stereotype. It's also no secret that Japanese marques have lost ground in the same field. It's no secret, as well, that Italian- and British-built marques bring up the rear.

What no one seems to want to acknowledge is what the 4th-place finisher in the provided results -- Kia -- represents: : How comparatively reliable most Korean marques now are.

Mike, we are saying the same thing. The point was that previous reputations don't always hold true. But yes, isn't it amazing that BMW is ranking third. I'm not sure if that speaks more to JD Powers way of assessing brand reliability or how poor some other manufacturers are.

[thebmw]

Originally Posted by fastboatster

Well, I wonder how they measure their reliability metrics. If that’s just over the warranty period then BMWs are dead reliable.

They usually base it on initial reliability. It is not based on how long these things last after 5 years.

[MmmmmM2]

I find it funny that the Supra did not even make the cut for R&T's PCOTY (reviewers said it had no feel steering and too much BMW DNA that it's not a Toyota) but yet it made Car & Drivers 10 Best.

[NickyC]

STILL yet to see one of these things on the road.

The folks on YT modding them are making them look even worse than they do stock, I thought that would be a difficult task.

The only guy who got it right was that render from pages back that took big time cues from the prototype. That thing is gorgeous and should have been the Supra.

[gatorfast]

Same here, have not seen one on the road yet.

I do like the pics/vids i have seen of that yellow color. If they offered a manual trans it would be so much more compelling.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by gatorfast

Same here, have not seen one on the road yet.

I do like the pics/vids i have seen of that yellow color. If they offered a manual trans it would be so much more compelling.

You can get it in a manual. It just requires you to send the car to a third party tuner (EAG) to have them do the manual trans conversion.

[fastboatster]

Does it deserve it, though? I have a feeling that for the amount of money it takes to get a new Zupra and get the manual conversion done, you can get something faster which comes with a manual stock...

[Top speed]

Nurburgring times are in for the new Supra. Basically as quick as the M2 competition at the ring.

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by fastboatster

Does it deserve it, though? I have a feeling that for the amount of money it takes to get a new Zupra and get the manual conversion done, you can get something faster which comes with a manual stock...

Literally why I own an m2c. I wanted a new Supra for almost as long as I can remember. Never been much of a bmw guy, but when they announced no manual, the Supra sadly dropped off my list.

But it did one thing for me: made me realize I could happily own a bmw.

[gatorfast]

Originally Posted by Moflow

Literally why I own an m2c. I wanted a new Supra for almost as long as I can remember. Never been much of a bmw guy, but when they announced no manual, the Supra sadly dropped off my list.

But it did one thing for me: made me realize I could happily own a bmw.

lol the new supra is essentially a BMW anyway

Im hoping that as this supra generation progresses they eventually release a 6mt version.