Transitioning from b58 to s65 (m240-e92 m3)

[Brandoch]

Originally Posted by M3SQRD

I agree with all of your comments. All I said was the f22 m240ix is faster in a straight line. Did not say the e92 is slow. My e92 with 3.62 FD diff almost hangs with the m240ix.

I find the e92 to be more engaging and thrilling. It has a true exotic sound that no exhaust can make a m240i sound close to an e92 (although it sounds way better than my f82).

The last M that you could truly enjoy on the street was the e46 M3. Any newer generation you could end up in jail!

I used to get so pissed off on the regular E9x series forum. 17 year olds would buy a 335i as thier first car and then complain how slow it was.

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by Brandoch

I used to get so pissed off on the regular E9x series forum. 17 year olds would buy a 335i as thier first car and then complain how slow it was.

A e92 335i with BMW’s first I6t is far from being slow! Those are usually the same people who drive up the costs of our insurance rates. Seventeen yo is too young for an e92 335. Now there are teens buying used f8x and g8x cars which makes the teens that bought an e92 335 look responsible!

[tbuck]

I guess I would say, having both an F23 M235i and an E92 M3, that one is for driving and the other is for experiencing.

The F2x platform is nothing special. Most parts come from the 3 series anyway. It is not that light considering it is the "small" car in the lineup. No amount of money spent will get it to the F87 level of looks or performance, so don't waste your time. As a DD, it is superb, with plenty of power to get through traffic, enough handling to do so effortlessly and enough tech to handle most of your in-car entertainment needs. Beyond that, it is just a non-special car. It will never be worth more money than it is right now.

The E9x M3 platform, however, is special in a few important ways. First, very low production numbers and the only M3 with a V8 will keep this cars value high forever, and continue to get higher for those clean, low mileage examples. Just look at E46 M3 prices as an example, and just forget about E30 M3 prices. All subsequent M3/M4 chassis were made in MUCH larger numbers. So, just in terms of a value perspective, the E9x will be worth more long-term.

Performance is another key issue, and while many above have cried about it being slow, I just don't see that as a real problem. Sure, low-end torque is not great, but who said you needed to drive around all the time at low RPM?? I certainly don't. This car, for me at least, is all about ALL the sensations, not just brute speed off the line. Even in stock form, the handling, the steering, the engine feel, the engine sound, all of these come together in a way that takes driving pleasure up several notches. Good luck finding this combination in any other car that doesn't cost twice as much. Your face will hurt after a nice long drive through the curvies because you were smiling the whole time. It is that kind of visceral experience.

Lastly, for me at least, is looks. These are the last of what I describe as the classic BMW look, and for me the pinnacle of this was E46 M3. Looks are of course subjective, so others may like new bodies better. But compared to the F2x, the E9x wins hands down IMHO. The F2x is not ugly or anything, but it is a complete departure from my idea of the BMW look.

Bottom line, we are all just third parties here, you will decide what makes most sense to you. Both are good cars, but in very different ways. Good luck!

[BGBF18]

I’m not sure I’d recommend daily’ing a 12-16 year-old BMW, but over to you. The E9X makes a fantastic second car, however.

Plus, there will always be a plethora of turbo BMWs to choose from, but the pool of well-maintained E9Xs shrinks every year.

[VR1]

I daily drive my e92 m3, wouldn’t have it any other way. I’ve driven a pleothora of B58, S55 and S58 cars. All great cars, but rather boring/numb to me. I’d also look at the GT350.

I was actually going to buy a F82 M4 CS as that was my original plan. Test drove one twice and was close to pulling the trigger. But then I accidentally drove an e92 and never thought about the f82 CS again.

Most of you guys must be drag racing to work - I live in Houston and have never had a single issue commuting to work with a 414hp/300tq vehicle. If anything, I feel like it’s too much power - I can barely wind out 2nd gear before going into serious ticket time speeding. If you need a 500hp/500tq car for daily driving for some reason, I agree a modded 340i (personally I’d get a model 3 performance at that point) would be better. But having driven a 340i over a week, I found the car too boring for me to want to drive every day. Winding out 1st gear of the e9x on my daily commute is one of the highlights of my day.

[PiZauL]

I used to have an e90 335 and then a F80 M3, and comparing the E9x M3 to those it blows them out of the water in the driving experience imo. To me, the E90 M3 is one of the most enjoyable and refined driving experiences I’ve ever had. Many years back I was between the F80 and E90 M3 for a daily driver and chose the F80, loved the car but it just didn’t do it for me so I traded it in for a GT350, which is an absolutely incredible machine but much more raw and definitely not an ideal daily driver. Even with the GT350 I couldn’t stop thinking of the E90 M3 so I finally pulled the trigger on one. I agree with BGBF18 in saying that the E9x M3 may not be the most ideal daily driver, solely due to gas efficiency; but if you have a short commute and don’t care with increasing gas costs and maintenance, it can work!

[januza]

I have a B58 but it’s a hybrid, a tuned X5 45e. 566hp / 780nm. A fantastic ride both luxurious, fun and fast. I just bought an M3. Yes it’s not as fast but god it’s so fun and so alive compared to the X5. And the sound is just out of this world. Will this be your daily or a weekend car like mine ?

[krudmunk]

I had a F80 M3 DCT for 4 years. Sold it to purchase the F82 M4.
I currently have a F82 M4 6MT that I owned for 3 years.
I also have a E92 M3 6MT that I owned for almost a year now.

I absolutely love the E92 M3. It’s just a more raw and harsh driving experience. I don’t know how to explain it, but I feel more connected with the car when I drive the S65. The hydrlaulic steering wheel and low end torque and all the quirks and noises feel more racecar. I care less about whether I have a backup camera or CarPlay or even a better interior. At the end of the day, I drive the E92 M3 way more often.

I bought the E92 M3 with 98k miles. No history of rod bearings or throttle actuators, as the car was owner by an elder gentleman who really took care of it. I highly recommend that you purchase one with any mileage within your budget, preferably one that hasn’t done rod bearings or throttle actuators. I strongly advice you to take opportunity and advantage of this and do it yourself for peace of mind with who you can trust at a reputable BMW shop.

The car is currently at 120k+ miles and still drives and handles like butter. No leaks and no issues. V8s are reliable as hell. Changed to new rod bearings, new oil filter housing, new valve covers with new valve cover gaskets, and new throttle actuators. I’m probably going to drive this thing till the wheels fall off. I drive the E92 M3 way more often than the F82 M4. E92 M3 is pretty much a daily now.

[Tragiclil]

Originally Posted by Brandoch

When did 0-60 in 4.2 seconds become slow? This is getting so ridiculous now a days. The Lamborghini Countach is slower. The amount of comments saying that the E9x M3 is slow just shows how out of touch people really are.

If driving on the streets, what point is there of having infinite power? The E36 M3 is enough power to get the general public into a lot of trouble.

Drive the car, feel the car, connect with the car.
Numbers don't mean anything without context. You can't get the true context without taking it off of public roads. Life isn't a video game.

This guy gets it. The E9x M3 is a drivers masterpiece.

[neilum]

Do people really enjoy flooring their turbo car from 1500-3500 RPM? Where did this around town come from? When the road opens up is where we all have fun anyway and in that case we’re at mid to high rpm anyway. The s65 is not gutless around town this is so silly.

It does need some mods though as stock these cars aren’t that special but once you mod a little they become awesome cars.

You are sacrificing technology, and some power for throttle response, character and intake and exhaust sound. If that’s what you’re looking for then go for it but the e92m are not the fastest car but if a Prius is beating you then learn how to drive!

[neilum]

Forgot to mention cost.

Considering in my opinion a stock E92 wouldn't scratch the itch for me, I would budget 3-5K for mods plus maintenance. These cars are solid but will require more maintenance than something more modern running a B58. I had Ohlins R&T, corsa or equivalent good sounding exhaust as absolute must haves to raise the bar with these cars. Stock there is no exhaust noise, and the stock suspension is decent but not great. Also, the shifter in the 6mt is crap, it needs to be upgraded. I had one DCT E9x and one 6mt and preferred the DCT as it was a better match for the motor IMO.

I've owned 2 E9X M3's and both never left me stranded but also weren't totally shy about reaching for my wallet modding it or maintaining it.

The DCT in particular is one aspect of the E9x that can be somewhat compared to higher end cars, its very good. The auto rev downshift blips, smoothness of the clutches, quickness of the shifts were way ahead of their time with dual clutches in the industry.

[Z K]

I have a M340i and had a E90 M3. I had both in my garage for 2 years before selling the M3 for another toy weekend car.

I owned the E90 M3 for 15 years and enjoy it every time. Compared to the M340i, the M3 feels slow in a straight line. The feeling between the two is completely different as the steering feel, the level of rawness is 10x better in the M3. Rev the V8 out to 8.4k RPM and row through the manual transmission and you'll get the appeal. Cornering, you can place the car exactly as you want. In a modern BMW car, you feel disconnected and isolated. The M3 is not that. You'd probably want some upgraded suspension as the stock M3 suspension is pretty soft.

That said, the M340i is 10x better a daily driver with more power, comfort, low maintenance and 2x the gas mileage of the M3. I have no doubt it is faster on track as I have ran with them on track. But as a weekend occasional car, I'd pick the E90 M3 all the time. I miss the M3 - a friend purchased it so I know the M3 is in good hands. He sends me updates as he makes it his own.

Here's me in my track set up M3 and a stock M340i... it's amazingly good for a completely stock car. I can see the potential in the M340i if set up for track similarly.... that's the progress of car technology.

[Lucky1]

Originally Posted by CamasM3e93

Completely different experiences, neither a disappointment in contrast with the other. The b58 is a smooth, capable and efficient 6 that exudes refinement. Driving it feels like the pinnacle of 20 years of engineering and it is arguably exactly that. The S65, especially when bracketed with mods on the ins and outs, is coarse, riotous, exhilarating and at times hilarious. I have both in the garage and I have a hard time envisioning a next step from either that doesn’t leave me penniless or disappointed. By all means, make the jump.

Can the B58 drive quietly and refined like an N52?

[CamasM3e93]

Originally Posted by Lucky1

Can the B58 drive quietly and refined like an N52?

Have owned both, I would say it is up to the driver style. The b58 gets gruntier when you’re hard on the gas. But if the driver is smooth with inputs, the b58 can approach the n52 in refinement.

[Brosef]

simply depends on what you want. if you want straight line speed, the latest tech, MPG and better daily driving, stick with a B58. if you want a special car that offers some legit racecar feels (the sounds, the way it builds power, and the throttle response), then the M3 wins hands down.

I've been blessed to own many cars the past 15 years. I had a 2011 M3 that was highly modded and tracked (supercharged and everything), and after a friend totaled it, I owned a lot of cool cars (including a 2019 GT3 RS, GT4, F90 M5, Audi RS6), and I just recently picked up a mint 2011 M3. to me, it's the perfect balance for a fun street car. amazing sounds and feel, great handling for its comfort, and it's fast without risking jail speeds. so many cars I owned were just too fast for the street - you couldn't put your foot down for more than a few seconds. I'm in love with the e92 I just picked up, and I'll be keeping it for a long time.

also, I don't accept the complaint that the car lacks low end torque. it's got plenty if you're in the right gear (and only then), but that's part of what makes the car rewarding to drive (you have to know what you're doing moreso than in a turbo car that has gobs of low-end torque to mask your laziness).

if there's one complaint I have about the car that isn't much talked about, it's the thick oil that takes too long to warm up.

it's not a car that's for everyone, and you should have your eyes wide open with respect to potential repairs (especially for an example with some miles).

[lukeryanbrown]

Originally Posted by Brosef

simply depends on what you want. if you want straight line speed, the latest tech, MPG and better daily driving, stick with a B58. if you want a special car that offers some legit racecar feels (the sounds, the way it builds power, and the throttle response), then the M3 wins hands down.

I've been blessed to own many cars the past 15 years. I had a 2011 M3 that was highly modded and tracked (supercharged and everything), and after a friend totaled it, I owned a lot of cool cars (including a 2019 GT3 RS, GT4, F90 M5, Audi RS6), and I just recently picked up a mint 2011 M3. to me, it's the perfect balance for a fun street car. amazing sounds and feel, great handling for its comfort, and it's fast without risking jail speeds. so many cars I owned were just too fast for the street - you couldn't put your foot down for more than a few seconds. I'm in love with the e92 I just picked up, and I'll be keeping it for a long time.

also, I don't accept the complaint that the car lacks low end torque. it's got plenty if you're in the right gear (and only then), but that's part of what makes the car rewarding to drive (you have to know what you're doing moreso than in a turbo car that has gobs of low-end torque to mask your laziness).

if there's one complaint I have about the car that isn't much talked about, it's the thick oil that takes too long to warm up.

it's not a car that's for everyone, and you should have your eyes wide open with respect to potential repairs (especially for an example with some miles).

Yes. Thank you for dressing the low end torque how you did cuz I’ve been sitting here confused on why so many people have that as such a big complaint as if it’s not possible to shift??Like I get it’s not gonna have torque like anything turbocharged but it’s not like it’s always gonna be that super slow build up from the bottom of the rpm’s if u have an idea of what ur doing.

[VR1]

Originally Posted by lukeryanbrown

Yes. Thank you for dressing the low end torque how you did cuz I’ve been sitting here confused on why so many people have that as such a big complaint as if it’s not possible to shift??Like I get it’s not gonna have torque like anything turbocharged but it’s not like it’s always gonna be that super slow build up from the bottom of the rpm’s if u have an idea of what ur doing.

For a street car, I really do not understand the torque complaints. I’ve never had any sort of issue passing anyone in my daily commute. I mean is everyone with less than 300 ft lbs of torque struggling in their daily commute?

[MyNameIsNotSure]

Have you ever driven one? I just got one after having a 2018 f80 (with black full leather) and honestly the interior of the e92 feels more premium to me, maybe it’s the fox red and the great condition of the leather idk, but everything (except idrive) just feels way more premium. I’ve been in a m340 and it’s nowhere near the interior quality level of either of those two imo.

As far as driving—well maybe I’m in the honeymoon phase but this thing is awesome. Yes it’s way slower than the f80 but it actually still feels fast just due to the sound, my gf gets more scared when I drive this thing fast than in my f80. Way more theater even though less hp is happening at the wheels. I could’ve easily bought another f80 in pretty good condition for the same price but glad I didn’t.

[Lucky1]

Originally Posted by VR1

For a street car, I really do not understand the torque complaints. I’ve never had any sort of issue passing anyone in my daily commute. I mean is everyone with less than 300 ft lbs of torque struggling in their daily commute?

Its not as bad as people make it out to be but in 1st and 2nd it feels a bit deader than many other BMW’s at low rpms including my tuned N52. Every other gear its fine because you generally won’t get into lower rpms. On throttle past low rpms lots of thrust comes on fast.

[Al Bundy's Dodge]

Drove my 2011 E92 around town this afternoon. Never once thought, “man this thing has no torque” as I hooliganed my way through traffic in 2nd gear.

[Shrike360]

It definitely doesn't have much grunt below ~2.5K, but it is a very responsive engine even at low RPM. To the extent that it kind of can match turbo engines as they build boost while you build revs. On the freeway, it has shocking punch even in 6th in the MT. But I still prefer a big turbo engine attached to a good auto for a daily driver. The S65 really wants open spaces, which you really don't get while dealing with traffic.

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNotSure

Have you ever driven one? I just got one after having a 2018 f80 (with black full leather) and honestly the interior of the e92 feels more premium to me, maybe it’s the fox red and the great condition of the leather idk, but everything (except idrive) just feels way more premium. I’ve been in a m340 and it’s nowhere near the interior quality level of either of those two imo.

IMO, the F80/2 is a noticeable step down in interior quality to the E9x unless it has full leather. The vinyl material they use feels super cheap. And the F87 interior quality is basically on par with Mustangs. The interior on my car is definitely starting to 15 years old, though, mainly the driver seat. I think the problem may be worse with the silver color, though. I swear the leather is actually softer then the rest other colors, but wears worse.